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Van Deer/Red Bull and WC Racing

James

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I thought the Martin did that Podcast this February. Maybe not.
Yes, I looked it up, Feb 16th. Seems like a year ago.
Funny how no one has asked the obvious question yet......aren't the Van Deere skis just rebadged Augments at the current time??? :popcorn:
Doubt it, but frankly it’s not that interesting either. ogsmile
Blossom made skis for all sorts.
 

ScotsSkier

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Doubt it, but frankly it’s not that interesting either. ogsmile
Blossom made skis for all sorts.

since it is Red Bull money behind all this it does become more interesting. Look how they bought into F1…and this looks like chump change in comparison….
 

Primoz

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@Ivan and @Muleski, first I have absolutely zero info on this (hell I didn't even know he's on Lange, btw on FIS it say's he's in Dalbello, but on photos from this season he's for sure on Lange) so it's just pure speculation. Knowing how these companies work and what's their policy, I would say that he took really really bad deal and huge payment cut, if there's any payment at all (place 30 on WC doesn't really bring you money, it's more like we give you skis, and if you had really good history with us, maybe even serviceman but most likely not) and combined with his age and his rank (before this season he was around place 30), Fischer went with it. If he would be let's say top 10 or top 15, I'm pretty sure Fischer would never go for this.
 

Primoz

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since it is Red Bull money behind all this it does become more interesting. Look how they bought into F1…and this looks like chump change in comparison….
It's not really Red Bull money behind Van Deer skis. Red Bull money is behind Hirscher, but not behind Van Deer. These two are still two different and unrelated things when it comes to this. But yeah I'm pretty sure some of money Hirscher got from Red Bull ended in Van Deer, but it's not like Red Bull is financing Van Deer.
 

CascadeConcrete

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How much does the boot affiliation also dictate the skis? How often do racers have mixed brands? Would Head, or Lange/Rossi, or Atomic, or Fischer try to force a skier to be on their skis too?
Liensberger tried to switch Kästle a couple years back, but couldn't find a company willing to sponsor her for boots only. She ultimately stuck with Rossi.
 

CascadeConcrete

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Maria Reisch was on Head skis and Lange boots back when she was racing. And I don't mean secretly on Lange's, it was official. Mancuso also skied Langes when she was on Volkl.
 
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Primoz

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When Mancuso was on Volkl, Dalbello wasn't (back) in race business yet, so at that time Volk was without their own boot. Riesch was probably still leftover from old times, when things were slightly different. Her last season was almost 10 years ago.
 

Petrus

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It seems like there is some connection between VanDeer and Lange

Raposo was on Rossi boots before and he was testing the "VanDeer" boots at the same time he was testing the skis.
It will be easy for Raposo to adjust to this Lange boot as it is basically the same as the Rossi, a part from the colors.

Hirscher was on the same boots when he came down the Streif a few weeks ago

1650447699409.png
 

Petrus

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Funny how no one has asked the obvious question yet......aren't the Van Deere skis just rebadged Augments at the current time??? :popcorn:

I confirm the strong connection between VanDeer and Augment, for sure the VanDeer skis are built by Augment.

I think the commercial products are just the same with a different topsheet.
Same geometry by the mm and same weights by the gram.


https://www.vandeer.ski/products/van-deer-pro


https://augment-sports.com/collections/master-race/products/21-22-pro-giant-slalom


1646836239465.png



1646836287980.png
 
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Philpug

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It seems like there is some connection between VanDeer and Lange

Raposo was on Rossi boots before and he was testing the "VanDeer" boots at the same time he was testing the skis.
It will be easy for Raposo to adjust to this Lange boot as it is basically the same as the Rossi, a part from the colors.

Hirscher was on the same boots when he came down the Streif a few weeks ago

View attachment 166958
Interesting plate, not an R22. Looks like a two piece design with that screw on the side attatching fore/aft pieces.
Screen Shot 2022-04-20 at 4.48.22 AM.png
 

Petrus

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If you go to Raposo Instagram account you'll find interesting material..

Look binding on R22 plate
Look binding on WC ALU Plate
Marker binding on WC ALU Plate

I think the only one missing is the Marker + Piston combination, maybe they tested it but it's not included in the pictures

1650456828205.png
 

Petrus

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It should be nice to have a few days on the slopes with these two guys giving you advice :)

1650457072208.png
 
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Petrus

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It's standard Rossi alu plate, at least from what I saw from other photos. Most of people normally use R22, but for certain conditions this one is used.

This plate is also available for sale to anybody, the only problem might be to have legs strong enough to handle it :)
It can be ordered with different hole patterns to mount Look, Marker or Fischer/Head bindings

 
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Ivan

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When Mancuso was on Volkl, Dalbello wasn't (back) in race business yet, so at that time Volk was without their own boot. Riesch was probably still leftover from old times, when things were slightly different. Her last season was almost 10 years ago.
Volkl has a weird history as far as boots are concerned. They were associated with Tecnica about 10-15 years ago (I believe Volkl was part of Tecnica group), so most Volkl athletes were in Tecnica boots. Then they split, and Volkl didn't really have a connection to any boot brand for a while. Or perhaps they had a connection to Dalbello, but Dalbello wasn't really present on the WC at the time. Anyway, most Volkl athletes were in Fischer boots at the time (Foss-Solevag is an exception, he's been in Dalbello since, like, 2014 or something). And then, about 5 years ago, Dalbello started to push really hard to get into the WC, so almost all Volkl athletes switched to Dalbello boots.
 

otto

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One factor that has not been touched on is the inner workings of each Federation that deals with their supplier "pool"

In many countries there still exists the classic relationship with the race equipment suppliers that have supported the teams and the athletes with the best equipment and the best service personal to achieve success. Historically it has been very difficult for a new brand or a new product category for a brand to just swoop in and "buy" the best athletes in the Federation to ski on your new and or unproven material. In many federations the rules of participation are clear that you have to pay for access without being able to sign top tier athletes until a length of time has passed. These types of stipulations were in place years ago. I do not know if these rules exist everywhere and whether they are still honored.

Using Liensberger as an example. Keep in mind this is conjecture on my part, however having been on the supply side as a race manager in North America, I can say that there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that is not normally public knowledge. Liensberger was an up and coming athlete that potentially was available to make a product switch based on either not having a contract or having a contract that was relative to her ranking at the time that her contract was signed. She tested, and liked the Kastle ski. From that point forward it was a cat fight as more than likely the Austrian Federation was potentially stretching their own rules about new brands or new products being allowed to be skied on top level athletes. To fight Kastle's arrival the other brands dug in and said OK Liensberger, go ahead and ski on those skis, we will not supply you with boots. Two results from that twist in the story. The first was that the Federation more than likely told Liensberger/Kastle that this arrangement will not work without causing damage to the existing Austrian material suppliers relationship with the Federation, and the second result was Kastle's deeply funded owners said OK if that's the way you are going to play, we will develop a race boot so we can come and play in your system. Based on that experience Kastle was able to have some exposure with a few lower level athletes from Austria that were not on their National Team but in both cases skiing for Federations that have no rules or consequences for equipment choice. There was the brother/sister team skiing for Isreal and Breitfuss skiing for Bolivia and also dabbling on the US Pro Tour.

So to the Van Deer situation is not very different from the Kastle situation. Marcel Hirscher does not get a special path into the material supplier group for Austria or more than likely any Federation that has a path to entry into that countries top athlete group. The purpose to that form of protectionism is to prevent the easy in, easy out, fly by night companies the right to promotion of athletes and Federations until their products have proven themselves. If you are Head, Atomic, Fischer, or Rossignol, as a company they will not have a nice cumbaya meeting with the Federation and say, "Yes we like Hirscher, and he is such a great guy and an Austrian hero, lets let him and his ski brand into the pool and we would each be happy to "give" away one of our best athletes to help this fledgling race brand not only compete, but beat us to the top step of the podium from time to time. Now if you follow that logic, if you were a ski brand that to date has not sold any skis into the market, where would the funding come from to supply any top form World Cup athlete with a contract, and material, and the quality of service it would take to mount a successful World Cup campaign?

What can you do as Van Deer or Kastle? You can sign athletes from Federations that do have limited or no history as a valuable promotable group for the major race supplier brands. hence Great Britain, Bolivia, and Isreal. Or perhaps I should not be so singleminded in my focus... There always is the possibility that the next Girardelli is out there trained and prepped to storm the World Cup, but is unhappy with their relationship with the Federation of their birth, so they pledge allegiance to another country with no federation or pool and ski on whatever equipment they want.

There is a story to be written and told, however it is just a tad early for it to be clear and relatable. In the mean time good luck to Charlie Raposo. regardless of his skill set and current World Cup rankings, what an amazing opportunity to have Marcel Hirscher in your corner helping you to develop and grow. And what a great story it will be if Van Deer and Hirscher can help transform Raposo into a world beater! From an expense to entry point of view, if this pans out and Raposo improves above his his current status overnight by switching ski brands to Van Deer, it will send shock waves through the World Cup!!!

Just for clarity sake this is sarcasm and humor on my part attempting to point out the oldness of the "good ole boys club" of the Federations and the suppliers "pools" in the sport of ski racing. Now the real news story on development of new product is a report that in an underground laboratory somewhere in the Swiss Alps, a new ski brand with cutting edge technology has assembled World Cup greats Gustavo Thoeni, Ingemar Stenmark, Pirmin Zurbriggen, Franz Klammer, Herman Maier, Ted Ligity, and Bode Miller that have all committed to a new brand of skis called Peak and are secretly training in this underground lab to return to the World Cup and decimate the existing status quo by winning each discipline title and the overall WC title this coming season They have been given special dispensation from the Pope to be able to compete as independents and the first ever "Peak Factory" team like Formula 1. This has them outside the view of the Federations protectionist practices keeping new and exciting technology down and unavailable to the average skiing public. For me personally I think the whole sport of Alpine ski racing would benefit if the World Cup became more like Formula 1. It would bring product development along faster than ever before, and raise the bar for subsistence for a larger pool of top level athletes. It would also get the NGB's out of the development business of ski racing athletes. LOL, ;)
 

jimtransition

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Interesting takes from lots of people, thanks for posting.

Seems logical that a new manufacturer selling a small number of skis can't just jump into the WC with enough money to pay a star. As a Brit and a Hirscher fan I hope this works out for them both!
 

Zirbl

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The Fischer boots absolutely do not work for everybody.

Another is Dalbello. Not a great boot for some.

Is there anything specific to these boots besides the fact that not every boot suits everyone's foot that makes you say this?

On a related note, what is it about the Lange that makes it so effective for so many that other companies go out of their way to build own version? (Or is this something that's been exaggerated on the forum?)
 
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James

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Didn’t Hirscher actually race for a time in red Dobermanns with Atomic stickers?

482C85FB-0836-42A4-9DB3-FAF4991C4E95.jpeg

Numbers on the heel are his phone pass code?
67- wcup wins
12- individual titles, gs and sl
8- overall wcup titles
7- World Championship medals
2- Olympic Gold medals
 

Primoz

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@otto not so long ago things were really strict over here in Europe when it came to this. And it goes for pretty much every single country and national federation, no. matter if it was Slovenia, Italian, Swiss or Austrian. Pool was pretty close thing, and it wasn't so much about giving money, but "buying" your way in with support of lower category racers. It was literally rule that you need to sponsor (with equipment and not money, as pretty much only in Austria, C and D team members got money contracts with suppliers), X number of kids, juniors and C or D team members, for each A team member skiing your equipment. After all the crisis ski companies went through in last decade or so, things are much more loose nowadays, so it would actually be possible for Van Deer to get into Austrian pool without first sponsoring whole bunch of kids. But as I wrote earlier, proper WC level service costs a lot. Single WC class serviceman costs company somewhere between 100.000 and 150.000eur/year (salary plus all other expenses). With Raposo I'm pretty sure this cost is gone, as I'm pretty sure he won't be having Van Deer serviceman but the one he will be paying on his own or GB team will be paying him (like it was case until now). With 2 or 3 WC level Austrian, like Hirscher was still talking about less then 2 months ago, just service costs would be probably around 200-300k eur. Then there's not so little payment for Austrian pool, whole bunch of other benefits for OSV and their lower ranked racers, as even though things are easier now, it's still not for free. And then someone who would be top 10 or top 15 on WC, would also want some money. And counting all this together, might be a bit too high steep even for Hirscher. But maybe I'm wrong, and there will be some top guy revealed in next few days, weeks or months.
 
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