Van Deer/Red Bull and WC Racing

[Muleski]

Is there anything specific to these boots besides the fact that not every boot suits everyone's foot that makes you say this?

On a related note, what is it about the Lange that makes it so effective for so many that other companies go out of their way to build own version? (Or is this something that's been exaggerated on the forum?)

No….No “magic.” I depends on the skier’s physiology, etc. and actually on foot size. And…gender. I can’t give you a rundown of ALL of the parameters, but here are a couple of thoughts.

Fischer makes their “real world cup” boot down to a 22.5 Not all that long ago that boot was almost impossible to obtain in this country in the straight {not duck foot} stance….and for a lot of young women at the top of the U16 and younger FIS ranks it was “money.” Great tech boot for them.

At the very same time, I know of VERY good women {like WC good} needing to squeeze into a 24.5, and they could never get dialed. Same boot tech. In the most extreme cases, they changed ski companies to get in other boots.

On the flip side, look at USST DH’s Steven Nyman at 6’4” + and Bryce Bennett at 6’6” The Fischer boot has always worked perfectly for them. Huge feet. BB’s sneaker is a 15-16. Long levers.

Guess……”it all depends.” USST skier Sam Morse is about 6’, size 11 sneaker: Has been in a Fischer boot for almost all of his ski life. Guess they work for him.

Lange? I would defer in a heartbeat to @otto, who has fitted more Lange plugs for top racers than anybody here. The general thinking among high level coaches, when something is not working, IME, is that a Lange can almost always be made to fit. It’s pretty amazing to see what can happen between out of the box and finished product with the product.

Certainly not the only boot….but a really skilled tech like Otto can do A LOT with the boot.

They are also generally available at Race Centers or through Lange Race.

Just my $.02.

Some boots are just hard to make work for some people. For the past 25 years….for me, it’s a Dobermann, or a Lange. Takes work, but finished, fitted product works.

 

[Zirbl]

Thank you sir for the detailed reply.

BB’s sneaker is a 15-16.

Same here. Any idea what shell size he uses?

 

[otto]

Thank you sir for the detailed reply.



Same here. Any idea what shell size he uses?

Bryce Bennett is in a 28.5. Not by choice, but what Fischer can supply. There may not be universal awareness as to what sizes the race brands build their boots in. In the case of Fischer they top out at 28.5 which is approx a 325mm boot sole length. When you see the picture below and check out the size of the heel spur on Bryce's right foot, you will have some understanding of what it takes to get him into that shell. This pic is the first year that Bryce switched off Atomic to Fischer.

I cannot give you the exact size range from each brand, however, some of the companies race boots top out at 28.5 or 325mm BSL while a few have the ability to build a 29.5 or 335mm BSL model. I heard it said over and over again that the best male ski racers have small feet. The case of Bryce disproves this urban legend. The best male ski racers do not necessarily have small feet, but based on molds available most male ski racers have small boots...

 

[otto]

@otto not so long ago things were really strict over here in Europe when it came to this. And it goes for pretty much every single country and national federation, no. matter if it was Slovenia, Italian, Swiss or Austrian. Pool was pretty close thing, and it wasn't so much about giving money, but "buying" your way in with support of lower category racers. It was literally rule that you need to sponsor (with equipment and not money, as pretty much only in Austria, C and D team members got money contracts with suppliers), X number of kids, juniors and C or D team members, for each A team member skiing your equipment. After all the crisis ski companies went through in last decade or so, things are much more loose nowadays, so it would actually be possible for Van Deer to get into Austrian pool without first sponsoring whole bunch of kids. But as I wrote earlier, proper WC level service costs a lot. Single WC class serviceman costs company somewhere between 100.000 and 150.000eur/year (salary plus all other expenses). With Raposo I'm pretty sure this cost is gone, as I'm pretty sure he won't be having Van Deer serviceman but the one he will be paying on his own or GB team will be paying him (like it was case until now). With 2 or 3 WC level Austrian, like Hirscher was still talking about less then 2 months ago, just service costs would be probably around 200-300k eur. Then there's not so little payment for Austrian pool, whole bunch of other benefits for OSV and their lower ranked racers, as even though things are easier now, it's still not for free. And then someone who would be top 10 or top 15 on WC, would also want some money. And counting all this together, might be a bit too high steep even for Hirscher. But maybe I'm wrong, and there will be some top guy revealed in next few days, weeks or months.

Primoz, the ski racing world is changing, however the advantage to certain brands to certain Federations cannot be easily altered. It is normal that concept of the 4 year cycle plays heavily in making decisions to allow change in the pool membership. As an example the strategy in many of the pool by-laws was to protect the existing pool partners from companies attempting to cash in on major televised events like the Olympics which come around every 4 years. So in most cases the pool contract terms were 4 year contracts that would prevent any new members from joining the pool or having top tier athletes in years 3 or 4. The companies that have been in there all along never wavering, never diminishing their support get the ability to have a say on those companies that are not in the pool, either by choice or by the timeline of their product development in the case of Van Deer skis and Kastle skis and boots. Some companies have come in and then pulled out of the US Ski Team Pool more than one time. At one point the Pool Review Board instituted a financial penalty lap concept for any brand that had pulled out and then was attempting to come back in. It was some type of initiation fee that had to be paid on top of the normal pool fee that would be charged to a never in the pool company versus one that was in and then left.

It is worth pointing out at this point that there is a new program that has been in place for a year called the SRS, which stands for Ski Racing Supplier Association. This organization is here to deal with some of the same issues that a Federation Supply Pool may deal with as well as coordinating all the organizations that have needs for equipment control like the FIS or IOC, etc. I could also see how this group could eventually build the foundation for "Formula 1" style teams that compete in similar or new formats of ski racing. In NASCAR they have a junior development program which is like an Academy were drivers hone their driving skills, as well as their PR and promotional skills so when they make it to the "Bigs" they are polished on and off the track. It gives potential sponsors a chance to sign athletes that are trained to drive and promote. Just saying that there is potential for wholesale change to the sport that all of us super fans live for!!!

 

[Zirbl]

Thanks Otto.

In the case of Fischer they top out at 28.5

That's exactly why I was wondering. You can make that work for a foot over 30 cm in length without interfering with the binding toe lug?

 

[James]

Bryce Bennett is in a 28.5. Not by choice, but what Fischer can supply.

Wow, that’s just mind boggling.
Any idea the number of wcup racers with say size US 13+ feet?
Kids used to be told by coaches their feet were too big, and no racers, blah blah blah…

 

[Muleski]

Thread drift, much?
HaHa.
Maybe we need a “Big Feet in Race Boots” thread!

About 10 years ago one of the fastest rising stars in CAST was Kelby Halbert. The kid could ski all disciplines and I think was the Canadian champ in DH and SG. Then I think in his early twenties he stopped.


He’s an honest 6’8” and at 22 was a very fit 240-245.

My hunch is that he had big feet!

 

[Snuckerpooks]

"Big Feet, Tiny Boots" sounds like a hip-hop album name.

 

[Primoz]

Second name looks quite a bit different then Raposo. Timon Haugan is suppose to be another one on Van Deer, and with 18th on SL rank, and with quite regular top 15 placements on WC this is something completely different.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Van Deer announced today that they have also signed Timon Haugan.

 

[dbostedo]

Van Deer announced today that they have also signed Timon Haugan.

@Primoz beat you to it

Short article here (Google Translate does a good job with it if, like me, you don't speak German):

Van Deer: Auch Timon Haugan wechselt Skimarke und wird Teil der "Hirscher-Familie"

Marcel Hirschers Ski-Marke freut sich über den nächsten Neuzugang: Der Norweger Timon Haugan fährt die kommende Weltcup-Saison auf Van Deer, um "zurück aufs Podest zu kommen".

www.kleinezeitung.at

 

[Philpug]

With Herscher, is Van Deer Red Bulls ray into ski racing?

 

[dbostedo]

With Hirscher, is Van Deer providing a path for Red Bull to get into FIS ski racing?

FIFY? Is that what you're asking?

 

[Muleski]

@Philpug, you keep mentioning RedBull with respect to Circa 2022 Marcel Hirscher, and his VanDeer venture.

Have you heard something that none of the rest of us have? Curious?

RedBull already pours a ton of money into a sport that is fairly small. They ARE in the game. Their model has been to contract with athletes individually, and support as needed. This past year they signed, on the women’s side, Sofia Goggia and Alice Robinson….both of whom are in RedBull helmets and ALWAYS in RedBull “signage”….clothing, etc. Like the big names on the guys side: HK, Odermatt, etc. And the recent retirees: Svindal, LV. And of course….Hirscher. Who never had RedBull on his helmet. Plus MS….who they would love to have in a helmet or hat.

They do more. They largely funded all of LV’s total program, along with Head. It was not the USST. All of her physios, etc were RedBull employees.

I would not be shocked if the totally drive Goggia’s medical and rehab program.

People ALWAYS get fired up about “Moving the sport to a Formula 1, team, model.” Then when challenged as to just how that works, the cliche answer that I always get or hear is “WELL….RedBull….”

I believe that F1 is a totally different animal. I have often wondered why we don’t see a very prominent RedBull patch on a the jackets of a national team or two, as a start. I guess that RedBull does not see a return. Or…..some of the people who make those calls and review those pitches think that RedBull may be a “bit sketchy.”

I also think that many who ponder this totally underestimate how 100% ingrained FIS is in the sport. WC is FIS. FIS is the regulatory body for all higher level ski racing…world wide. Will we see RedBull homologated trails, as one tiny example?

I tend to be very critical of how FIS operates and is organized, BTW.

I am told that there is not one dime of RedBull investment in VanDeer. Maybe that is “yet.” No idea.

I just must miss the linkage of this to RedBull eventually dominating alpine racing or controlling it. Keep in mind, it is a pretty small sport. Small interest, viewership, etc.

I AM curious about Hirsher’s VanDeer. Haugan is a bigger signing than Rapasso. Now is they signed somebody on the way up, already at the near top….that will open my eyes. How about a McGrath? HK?

I assume that RedBull will do many things. Not expecting FIS to go away. Or a competing body to form.

Waiting for the next Red Bull signee?
Vinatzer?

 

[Philpug]

@Philpug, you keep mentioning RedBull with respect to Circa 2022 Marcel Hirscher, and his VanDeer venture.

Have you heard something that none of the rest of us have? Curious?

Hard facts, no, just some rumors.

 

[Muleski]

Hard facts, no, just some rumors.

May be a lot of that going on. Have a mutual close friend with MH. They met ski academy years in Austria. He is older than Hirscher. He was nosing around looking for investors long before this was close to public.

At that point ZERO mention of RedBull. None. Maybe he was not clued in? Or maybe their interest has increased….or not.

It will not surprise me of they get involved. To some degree. It may be that the athletes that MH signs to Van Deer all become RedBull athletes. Or, they don’t see the upside.

I think he needs a big gun…..on the way up…and that will be a tough one, IMO. A very costly deal.

CROC, now Augment has had some great skis that have snuck their way onto the WC. And I mean VERY great skis….not like anybody we know skis.

Their challenge had nothing to do with product, or awareness at that level. They could not afford a legit WC program, I hear. Even with one national federation. It adds up SO fast into real money. Pool fees, servicemen and a service program, the material, a WC race director…..

So maybe Hirscher finds more investors/partners if he plans to take that on…..I assume.

He must have a burning desire to pull this off. I think he left a nice world ambassador deal behind with Atomic. Plenty of euros with NO heavy lifting.

Fascinating to watch. Very different, IMO, than Bode’s gig.

 

[Swiss Toni]

I would be very surprised id Red Bull were involved in Van Deer, according to Austria’s company register it’s owned by MH and Dominic Tritscher, who was formally Atomic’s global sports marketing manager. They say they are “sharing” the Augment facility, the address is the same.

I don’t think there would be any difficulty in raising the necessary finance in Austria, especially as all Austria’s major ski brands are foreign owned.

Van Deer’s launch event was held at Bründl Sports new flagship store in Kaprun, they are the exclusive retailer for Van Deer in Austria. The Bründl brothers have 31 shops with 550 employees, turnover was 70 million euros in 2019.

MH is also one of the founders of the clothing brand The Mountain Studio, his partners have already made over $15 million in the ski clothing business.

As you say this is a very different gig to Bode’s.

 

[Petrus]

New additions to the Van Deer team:

Giger (ex manager in the Austrian Team)

Giger in the (ski) stable of the Red Bull - 24 Hours World

When the 59-year-old Toni Giger ended his employment with the Austrian Ski Association ÖSV two weeks ago after 33 years, the surprise was great. Especially since the sports director put a question mark behind his future plans. Now the suspicion of insiders seems to be confirmed that Giger will use…

24hoursworlds.com

 

[Muleski]

The RedBull, Van Deer “relationship is looking more and more interesting. Toni Giger is now at RedBull. Got it. Running their ski related business. Sort of get it, but it sounds like they must have bigger plans.

THEN, the latest press about his primary focus as the head of “Global Sports” at RedBull being to direct all of Hirschers ski projects and to push the Van Deer brand.

If this is accurate….and I assume it is…..it’s very, very interesting. I’m “all ears” as this all unfolds. All new to me.

 

[dbostedo]

...is looking more and more interesting...

Hmm... it'll get really interesting when we see McLaren partner with Atomic, Mercedes with Head, and Ferrari with Stockli.