Choosing Skate skis -- where to start?

[crosscountry]

First thing first,, skate skis don't have a kick zone. So what's the factors to look for in sizing?

I know longer skis glide better. Wider skis are more stable. And I'm sure flex come into the equation too. But in what way? And any other characteristics affects how they skis?

A bit of history. I got started skating one year in a "program" which included rental equipment. I then bought a set just like the rentals and skied on it for a few seasons. I didn't think much about the skis. I just focus on working on my technique.

Somewhere along there, I was given a pair of skis by a friend who used to be a racer, but no longer skies any more. With a classic mentality in my head, I thought there's no way it would work for me, as he's taller and heavier than me, and way fitter and more skilled than me from his racing background. The ski is also a fair bit longer than the ones I've been skating on. But one day, the condition was perfect and I had finished my "workout" much earlier than usual. So I took that long ski out to give it a try. Lo and behold, I had no problem getting it going. It glides better, more stable too. So it became my favorite skis for a while. The skis were fairly old, but in quite good condition. On the faded top sheet I could still make out, it claims it had 10+ gold Olympic medals were won on!

However, when the hills got steeper, I struggled. I mean, I really struggled. That's when I went back to my shorter rent-to-own skis, which would got me up the hills without fanfare. Naturally, I started thinking maybe the other skis are just too long for me? Or wait, maybe it's too stiff for my skill or fitness level?

I know how to choose classic skis. It's all about the right flex/length to get the kick zone to contact snow during the kick but off the snow during the glide. But skate skis don't have kick zones. So what makes a ski work or not work for someone? How does one determine the right flex and/or right size? In addition to length, what makes one modal ski better or worse than another modal?

Having skied on two very different size skis that performs very differently, I now realize there's a pretty big difference in choosing the "right" skis for myself. Perhaps my rent-to-own skis are now no longer optimal for my skill level after a couple of seasons? I wouldn't know. But what is it that separates different modals? How do I figure out what's the right one in size and in characteristic? What's to look for?

So, what's the many factors to consider when choosing skate skis?

 

[jt10000]

Men of average size should have skate skis of 180-190cm. Maybe a few cm longer is OK. 185 or 190 or 192ish. But the key thing is stiffness relative to your weight and skiing style. The pattern of flex (how the weight is distributed) also plays a big role, as does the quality of base material, the state of the base material, and the structure on that base.

Later if you get more skis you can get skis with different flexes for different conditions. For example, skis on cold snow typically should have more even weight distribution along the length of the ski, while skis for wet snow should have more pressure over a shorter area. Generally softer flex relative to your weight glides better but is harder to control. Stiffer flex with more pressure at the tips and tails is more stable due to a longer "wheelbase." But these are nuances - start with a ski for all-around conditions flexed for your weight. If there are choices, the base structure should err towards colder snow - more structure can be added for wetter or warmer snow. And all-around ski with a structure for cold (but not super-cold) snow is the universal ski for fun and fitness.

If you're getting new skis (and it sounds like you should) talk to a shop with a large stock when they are not busy, telling them your size and how you ski. That'll work. Tell them the ski is for all-around conditions. Gearwest and Boulder Nordic Sport are two good places (not sure of their stock in this supply chain crisis) - and the BNS annual PDF catalog has great info about skis. Other good places to buy in the US are Pioneer Midwest, Caldwellsport (tends to only have top stuff, but the associated West Hill Shop might have more variety), Akers, New Moon Ski, and probably many more.

Caldwell Sport's website has had massive amounts of info about ski flex. BNS probably does too.

In terms of models, for fun skiing anything from the top level to three or even four levels from the top will be fine. I have a pair of top-line Madshuses ten years ago (from Nordic Ultratune) and then a couple years later got a pair a couple levels down (from nordicskater.com) and both were great. That lower-level ski is now four levels from the top since Madshus added something even fancier than their top.

 

[neonorchid]

Choosing Skate skis -- where to start?​

REI Garage Sale.

 

[Primoz]

Skate skis, just as classic skis have different stiffness for different weight. I admit I have very very limited knowledge of lower end skis, so all what I write when it comes to xc skis (or alpine) is more or less based on race skis, and even that is based on skis that I have personal experience, which makes it even more limited (Fischer with xc and Fischer and Rossignol with alpine). With Fischer race skis, you basically have 2 lenghts, 192cm for men (before was 195) and 176 or 181cm for women. Then each length has different stiffness depending on racer's weight (when it comes to racing it also depends on snow and conditions for which particular ski will be used). For getting right stiffness each company has table what stiffness is for what weight range.
As for racing or non-racing skis goes. Contrary to alpine skiing where skiing with skis above your ski level, actually makes you harder to ski and you ski worse because of "too good skis", xc is similar to most of others sports, where racing equipment won't make it harder to do that particular sport for you. In fact skiing with good race skis, will make it feel better. Skis are faster, they glide nicer etc. Sure you might not need race skis for your ability, and you might not get all what they offer out of them, but you can ski just as good on them, as on lower end skis (plus better glide which makes it on the end to feel you ski easier or with less effort).
But there's one thing. Depending on your size, too long ski (let's say 192cm men skis for someone who is 165cm) makes it harder to go uphills, as you will be steeping on your own ski tails on climbs if your technique is not good.

 

[crosscountry]

As for racing or non-racing skis goes. Contrary to alpine skiing where skiing with skis above your ski level, actually makes you harder to ski and you ski worse because of "too good skis", xc is similar to most of others sports, where racing equipment won't make it harder to do that particular sport for you. In fact skiing with good race skis, will make it feel better. Skis are faster, they glide nicer etc. Sure you might not need race skis for your ability, and you might not get all what they offer out of them, but you can ski just as good on them, as on lower end skis (plus better glide which makes it on the end to feel you ski easier or with less effort).
But there's one thing. Depending on your size, too long ski (let's say 192cm men skis for someone who is 165cm) makes it harder to go uphills, as you will be steeping on your own ski tails on climbs if your technique is not good.

That sound like exactly how I felt on that hand-me-down racing ski my ex-racer friend gave me! Fast, stable, but can't get up the hill.

(actually, I don't remember stepping on my tails. Just a real hard time to get any glide out of each step)

I may have a chance to demo some ski this weekend. Now I have a bit more direction on what to demo. Thanks

 

[Tom K.]

So, what's the many factors to consider when choosing skate skis?

I am a lover of a bargain, but xc skis is an area where I don't pursue this. I call a shop that really knows their business, spend a surprising amount of time on the phone, and pay full price or nearly that for the RIGHT ski for my weight, ability, most common snow/temp I ski in, and how hard I like to push things these days (not as hard).

For me this is Gear West. I know others who have had great experience with New Moon and Boulder Nordic. When I bought a pair of skate skis this year, they had 62 pair of the ski I was purchasing, and had a sales associate my size stand on 7 of them, sent me their best choice AND THEY ARE ROCKETS! Ideally, I would have been directly involved, but not travelling to MPLS for a ski fitting!

CAVEAT 1: Honestly, this isn't as critical for skate skis as classic skis IMO.

CAVEAT 2: Of course, places like Gear West have late season sales, but with each pair of skis they sell, it's less likely they will have your ideal ski.

CAVEAT 3: Of course @Primoz knows 10 times more about this than I ever will, but I disagree with him on one point, which is the 192 size for nearly all adults. If hill climbing is your challenge, one size shorter ski makes things a bit easier, and you won't give up a lot of glide in the trade off.

 

[Primoz]

@Tom K. there was slight misunderstanding. I'm not saying everyone should stick with 192cm. Not even close to that. But in racing, 192cm is with Fischer pretty much only men size they do in race service, so like it or not, you are tied to 192cm if you are getting skis from race service. If you are getting them from store, then there's plenty of sizes to chose, and there's absolutely no need to pick 192 especially if you are not exactly 180 or 185cm, but are on a bit smaller side. Only reason for smaller people to stick with 192 when getting skis in store is their weight. If they are 165cm and need skis for let's say 80kg, they won't find stiff enough ski in 172cm size for example. And stiffness is still pretty important in skating skis too, so with that, you would rather pick "too long" skis then too soft skis.

 

[crosscountry]

Thanks for all the advices. It helped a lot.

Today, I had a chance to demo some skis. I kept the suggestions in mind when choosing what to demo.

Since I have one ski of 170 that I don't like too much, and one ski at 190 that I like a lot except on hills. I figure 180 might be a good compromise. And as I'm a couple cm shy of 165cm, but only 50kg dripping wet -- basically, a stick (and mostly legs), 180cm skis seem like a good compromise, and that length also fall into the range suggested by the above posts. Easy starting point, I simply asked for any 180cm skis...

First, I was given an "entry level" skis from the Fisher tent. I didn't like it any better than my short ski. I now suspect it's more than just the length, but the flex might be too soft..

Second tent, I asked for a 180 for a "intermediate", but was given one that's 173, as the guy thought its flex matches my weight better. Unfortunately, the 180 length with the "right flex" skis were all out. That 173 felt better than the "entry level" 180.

But before I took it for a longer ride, I asked to tried the 180 that the demo guy thought was a tad too stiff for my weight.

Hell, I like that a whole lot better! More stable than my too short (and probably too soft) 170 skis. Climbing was a lot easier than my too long 190 skis. It's one of the Atomic Redster skis. Unfortunately, I didn't realize there're more than one Redster, so I had no idea which of the Redster I had demo'ed. I suspect it wasn't the top of line model though.

In short, I think 180 seems to be about the right length for me. And going a tad stiffer flex doesn't seem to bother me too terribly.

I would have loved a test spin on the 180 with the right flex for my weight. But by the time I got back from my long test ski with the lovely 180 that's "a tad too stiff for my weight", they were about to pack up to leave... Moreover, I didn't even get the full model detail of the one I liked. Worse still, a lot of the models are out of stock, unless I can get my hands on the demos at the end of the season...

 

[Primoz]

Stiffer ski won't really "bother" you for skiing on it. For classic it's of course different, as you won't "bend" it enough for wax to work. With skating, it will make difference with how ski glides, but skiing itself won't be all that much different. And this will be even more noticable in soft(er) snow, so personally for single pair of skis, I would go with the one that's spot on for your weight, not too hard one (of course also not too soft one).

 

[Slim]

@crosscountry , you wrote that with the too long skis, you did not notice stepping on the tails on uphills, but noticed you got no glide there.
That is easily explained:
You were (subconsciously) keeping your legs wider apart, to avoid stepping on the tails. When you do this, your weight never transfers fully to one ski, instead, it stays stuck between both skis.

In order to get glide in a skating motion, you need to have all your weight on one ski, so with longer skis, on steeper uphills, this becomes harder and harder without stepping on the tails of the skis.

So really it is the same issue of too long a ski, just choosing a different evil (no glide vs stepping on tails)

 

[Bienski]

@Tom K. Since you already mentioned Gear West and Blue Moon, I’ll throw Finnsisu in the mix also. A very fine Nordic shop in St. Paul, MN. They have a great stone grinding operation.

 

[crosscountry]

Stiffer ski won't really "bother" you for skiing on it. For classic it's of course different, as you won't "bend" it enough for wax to work. With skating, it will make difference with how ski glides, but skiing itself won't be all that much different. And this will be even more noticable in soft(er) snow, so personally for single pair of skis, I would go with the one that's spot on for your weight, not too hard one (of course also not too soft one).

When you say "glide differently", do you mean it glides faster/slower in different snow if ski is too stiff? In other words, it wouldn't give the optimal glide in some snow condition?

For not racing, that probably doesn't really make a noticeable difference. But would it also make handling more tricky if the snow surface is less than perfect? That's one of the phenomenon we hobby skiers not living next to Olympic training facility have to live with.

 

[jt10000]

When you say "glide differently", do you mean it glides faster/slower in different snow if ski is too stiff? In other words, it wouldn't give the optimal glide in some snow condition?

For not racing, that probably doesn't really make a noticeable difference. But would it also make handling more tricky if the snow surface is less than perfect? That's one of the phenomenon we hobby skiers not living next to Olympic training facility have to live with.

Generally softer skis glide faster (assuming same length), even in hard snow, but feel less stable. In terms of handling, a ski that's stiffer will generally handle better, especially on hard snow. This can help with speed, even if the ski doesn't literally glide as fast, because it may let you skate with better technique on fast terrain because you'll be more willing to commit your weight shifts due to the stability.

But if the ski is stiff and the snow is soft, the ski will not only not glide as fast, but may tend to have its tips plow a little, particularly when going uphill. It just won't feel good.

Get a ski for your weight for all-around conditions. A little too stiff if probably better than a little too soft, but aim for the right flex from the start.

 

[crosscountry]

Even in hard snow. In terms of handling, a ski that's stiffer will generally handle better, especially on hard snow. This can help with speed, even if the ski doesn't literally glide as fast, because it may let you skate with better technique on fast terrain because you'll be more willing to commit your weight shifts due to the stability.

I think you just described me!

 

[Tom K.]

You were (subconsciously) keeping your legs wider apart, to avoid stepping on the tails. When you do this, your weight never transfers fully to one ski, instead, it stays stuck between both skis.

Nail on head. It's easy to forget that in skate skiing, 4 inches of extra glide with each stride is MONEY.

@Tom K. Since you already mentioned Gear West and Blue Moon, I’ll throw Finnsisu in the mix also. A very fine Nordic shop in St. Paul, MN. They have a great stone grinding operation.

Finn Sisu is awesome. Can't believe I forgot them. And package deals with saunas are available!

 

[crosscountry]

So let me see if I get this length and flex thing right.

In racing skis, they come in one length and different flex to match skier weight. I get that, pretty straight forward.

But in recreational skis, skis don't tend to come in different stiffness. So is flex reflected by length? The longer the stiffer etc.? However, that wouldn't account for the height of skiers. Heavy but short skiers would end up with long (= stiffer?) skis they have trouble going up steep hills, wouldn't they?

What about different models? Are the more "entry level" skis softer than the "higher" level skis? Does that muddling up the water between length and flex or what?

Or is my understanding too simplistic and still missing some important nuances?

 

[jt10000]

So let me see if I get this length and flex thing right.

In racing skis, they come in one length and different flex to match skier weight. I get that, pretty straight forward.

No, what Primoz calls race service - the super racing skis used by skiers at high levels of the sport (eg World Cup, continental cups etc) are in one length (or two, one for women, one for men). It's hard to get access to these as a regular person.

Consumer-level racing skis exist and come in multiple lengths - you can see this on the company website such as for Fischer and Madshus. These skis can be very good too.

You want a ski marketed for racing, even if not the top model in a line - these will come in different lengths and stiffneses. For example you can see that on the Fischer US website (just an example)

Ski

www.fischersports.com

A good shop (in early season, outside a pandemic) will have these skis in different flexes and possibly even have flex-tested them to know about variations from pair to pair. At a minimum the shop should be telling you this is good a fairly narrow weight range - 10ish KG range.

Don't bother with a ski marketed as a recreational ski - those are too low level IMO. But a ski sold for racing a couple levels from the top can still be good IMO.

 

[Tom K.]

You want a ski marketed for racing, even if not the top model in a line

Agreed. IMO top end skis have become a bit ridiculous in terms of price and fragility. As a fairly high performance skater -- but no longer a racer -- my rule of thumb is to simply buy one model down from the tip top of the range.

 

[crosscountry]

Consumer-level racing skis exist and come in multiple lengths - you can see this on the company website such as for Fischer and Madshus.

OK, I got that part. Multiple length correspond to different stiffness (expressed in skier body weight)

But I'm still a little confused, what's the difference between models, say the Fisher RCR Skate (Medium), RCS Skate Plus (Medium), or even Speedmax 3D (Medium)? The length recommendation for those skis are the same. Are they just different construction? And perhaps different skiers have different preferences?

And one other thing, Fisher's chart mentioned an FA number, and example on how to calculate it. But I don't see it used in the length recommendation chart...

Apology for all the confusions. Sorry for being so very slow in understanding.

 

[jt10000]

But I'm still a little confused, what's the difference between models, say the Fisher RCR Skate (Medium), RCS Skate Plus (Medium), or even Speedmax 3D (Medium)? The length recommendation for those skis are the same. Are they just different construction?

Read their website or reviews or other info online. Mainly go buy some skis.