Choosing Skate skis -- where to start?

[Primoz]

But in recreational skis, skis don't tend to come in different stiffness. So is flex reflected by length? The longer the stiffer etc.? However, that wouldn't account for the height of skiers. Heavy but short skiers would end up with long (= stiffer?) skis they have trouble going up steep hills, wouldn't they?

What about different models? Are the more "entry level" skis softer than the "higher" level skis? Does that muddling up the water between length and flex or what?

Or is my understanding too simplistic and still missing some important nuances?

Not exactly so. Also for "consumer" or "recreational" skis they have different stiffness. But stiffness depends on length. This means that super stiff skis at 170cm are softer then soft skis at 190cm.
This is first Fischer catalog I found, so hopefully it will work for you. If you look at page 49 you will see tables with ski model, ski length and skier's weight:

Workbook 21l22 Nordic EN

Issuu is a digital publishing platform that makes it simple to publish magazines, catalogs, newspapers, books, and more online. Easily share your publications and get them in front of Issuu’s millions of monthly readers. Title: Workbook 21l22 Nordic EN, Author: Fischer Sports GmbH, Length: 65...

issuu.com

So if you take first ski in table (Fischer Skating Speedmax 61K... yeah it's a bit special ski but doesn't really matter). If you are 70kg you have several options, 181cm stiff, 186cm medium or stiff or 191cm medium. But if you are 85kg you are basically stuck with 191cm stiff ski, even if you are 160cm. Same goes on other extreme... if you are 50kg you are either on 171cm medium or 176cm medium even if you are 180cm. Sure these are super extreme things as there's very little chances someone who is skiing will be 85kg at 160cm, or 50kg at 180cm, but you get the point
In these tables, you can find appropriate length and stiffness for all Fischer models, so yes even lower end models have different stiffness (page 50 and 51), but there stiffness really depends on length so you don't have soft, medium and stiff model of same length, but you pick right length for certain weight. I'm sure other manufacturers have similar tables available.
As for different models... talking about Fischer again, but you asked for that anyway Speedmax and Carbonlite are their race skis. They are two different models of race ski, and they are meant for different condition so their flex pattern is different (not talking about ski stiffness for different weight now, but how ski flexes when on snow and where are main pressure point toward snow), and also their construction is different. Personally for recreational skiing I would always pick Speedmax, but for racing you need to have both (like 20 pairs of each ). Plus and cold is just for what they are meant. Different ptex, different construction and different flex pattern for cold snow and for warm snow. But in general plus is best option, as it works fine down to -10c, and most of time normal people don't ski at -20c where cold skis would work better. So nowadays most of my skis are plus.
RCS Skate Plus is wannabe racing ski, but in reality it's recreational ski with look of racing ski. Slightly heavier, a little bit more stable, worse ptex, but with hole in tip it still looks like race machine. And I just saw it last week on track, 2021 model all in black looks pretty damn awesome

 

[crosscountry]

Thanks all for the help.

Happened upon a race event, had the good fortune to demo a bunch of top tier racing skis. One felt like it was custom made for me!

A pair of Salomon S/Lab Carbon Blue has now been added to the quiver.

p.s.
Now that "the season" is over (racing season that is), all the race skis are on deep discount. Am tempted to also get a new pair of classic skis too...

 

[slow-line-fast]

Classic is also great, but brings up a more complicated set of equipment issues. There were some threads on this this season.

In short, go for skin skis and fore-aft adjustable bindings (unless you are already a pro kick waxer) and note that length/flex is a lot more fiddly than with skate skis.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Great thread. I am 5"8, 145 pounds. I have skate skied many years ago and would like to get back into it.

Recommendations for skis/boots, please?

I am looking for a solid package not the cheapest. I like good gear, take care of it and keep stuff for a long time.

Will mainly be skiing at the Aspen Nordic Center and Snowmass golf course.

Thank you.

 

[jt10000]

Great thread. I am 5"8, 145 pounds. I have skate skied many years ago and would like to get back into it.

Recommendations for skis/boots, please?

I am looking for a solid package not the cheapest. I like good gear, take care of it and keep stuff for a long time.

Will mainly be skiing at the Aspen Nordic Center and Snowmass golf course.

Thank you.

I suggest reading the boot and ski sections of the last few issues of the Boulder Nordic Annual and then visiting or calling a good shop (Boulder Nordic, Gear West, Nordic Skater, etc) midweek. Describe yourself and see what they have in stock that fits. Ideally you'd try on the boots a few times. Fit is not as complex as with alpine boots, but still.

I think you'd want skis, boots and poles about one or two levels from the top that fit you well.

 

[Tony S]

Somehow I missed this thread the first time through. There is a ton of good info in here. @Nancy Hummel, it's worth reading the whole thing for the comments from Tom, JT, and others. (Primoz's info is fascinating, but most of it is way way over the heads of casual skiers.)

The one thing I'll add, that I don't remember seeing here, is don't be tempted to skimp on poles. They are primary gear in this sport.

 

[Tom K.]

Recommendations for skis/boots, please?

A good shop, and one or two levels from the top, as recommended above.

My biggest tip is that if you tune and wax your own skis, be very careful with heat on your new skate skis. They don't have the thermal mass of an alpine ski, so it's easy to overheat them, which can "close off" the base structure and hurt wax impregnation and glide.

I've been waxing my own for decades, and have to admit to doing this once anyway.

don't be tempted to skimp on poles

+1000, and if you live in a snowy place, and have some power, don't go too tiny on the baskets, to help avoid the dreaded "punch through".

 

[Primoz]

Nowadays it's easier with baskets then before. At least for Swix and One way, it takes 10sec and you have different baskets on. No need for heating, gluing and bugging with that anymore. But yes it's pretty annoying when track is soft, or even not perfectly done and there's small crust on top which you go through with pole, and you have super small race baskets on which are meant for icy hard tracks. So definitely either get second pair of baskets (if poles are new(er) Swix or One Way), or just go with bigger baskets right away.
As for poles itself... top of the line race poles for 300+eur are probably too much for most people, but nevertheless go with poles that are 100% carbon. It's worth paying a bit more and have proper sturdy (and lighter) pole then saving 50eur and having soft spaghetti. Poles (and partly boots) are two things that evolved the most in xc skiing, and today's poles really make huge difference compared to 15 years old ones.

 

[Tom K.]

At least for Swix and One way, it takes 10sec and you have different baskets on. No need for heating, gluing and bugging with that anymore.

OK, buying new poles immediately once it starts snowing. Thanks!

 

[Slim]

Great thread. I am 5"8, 145 pounds. I have skate skied many years ago and would like to get back into it.

Recommendations for skis/boots, please?

I am looking for a solid package not the cheapest. I like good gear, take care of it and keep stuff for a long time.

Will mainly be skiing at the Aspen Nordic Center and Snowmass golf course.

Thank you.

For boots, I assume you don’t have huge feet, so combined with you low height and weight, I don’t think you’d find any boot lacking in stiffness. So, I’d just say: get what fits best. Higher end boots might be a touch lighter too, but how much does that matter to you? The fact that higher end boots are (usually ) stiffer, won’t likely matter.

As far as skis go, that’s a tough one. Are there any shops in your area that do force measurements along the skis? That way, they generate a graph of the stiffness characteristic, and can match that with your skiing style and conditions. like this.

On the other hand, if you are just starting again, you won’t have any benchmarks to say what you liked or disliked about a specific ski, so your other option is just buying any ski in the mid to upper levels (but not the very top end, they tend to be marginally lighter, but not ski better, and (probably) less durable), that matches your weight and height and is on a good sale.

 

[Slim]

Hmm @Primoz I love you! You just gave me the reason to replace my 16 year old poles. They are still perfectly fine, so I had not found a good excuse to replace them.

And yes, for @Nancy Hummel , replace any of those tiny 1.5” baskets. Even on well groomed, firm snow, those punch through, especially on the edge (if you hop in the tracks or so). The tiny wight savings will not speed you up anywhere near the amount the stuck pole slows you down.
I don’t live in a snowy place, and I don’t have power, but it‘s still super annoying if you punch through.

 

[Primoz]

@Slim just one side note... this was based on race poles. I was still using my old race poles, which were by now something like 15 years old. They were full carbon and were best poles you could get at that time. Then one of my Swix friends brought me new pairs (their current top poles, Triac 4.0), and I couldn't believe how much difference there is. They are not much lighter, they don't feel much different when just holding them, but when you go out on track, difference is simply unbelievable. All of a sudden it's clear why, especially classic, went to where it is now, and double poling pretty much anything is possible nowadays. Even now in my shape, I'm able to double pole whole 5km loop (like 8 of them in a row ) from last years Nordic World champs (which means it's not really flat course). So yeah definitely worth changing them, even if they look perfectly fine (like my were perfectly fine).

 

[jt10000]

I was still using my old race poles, which were by now something like 15 years old. They were full carbon and were best poles you could get at that time. Then one of my Swix friends brought me new pairs (their current top poles, Triac 4.0), and I couldn't believe how much difference there is.

Uggh, I'm still on old (100% carbon, but old) poles. I actually have an unused/uncut pair I was "saving" to use.

 

[Slim]

@Primoz , that’s interesting! I’d have thought it was for skate, whee, due to the longer length, differnces in (swing) weight and stiffness would matter the most. But you are saying you noticed it even more with classic poles?

 

[jt10000]

There's been a big change in classic racing technique the last ten or so years, with much more emphasis on poling (double poling) than before at the top of the sport. So poling is a bigger part of propulsion than in skating for some races/racers. Or even the only part.

 

[Slim]

There's been a big change in classic racing technique the last ten or so years, with much more emphasis on poling (double poling) than before at the top of the sport. So poling is a bigger part of propulsion than in skating for some races/racers. Or even the only part.

Good point. Unfortunately, this does not apply to me, haha!

 

[Tony S]

There's been a big change in classic racing technique the last ten or so years, with much more emphasis on poling (double poling) than before at the top of the sport. So poling is a bigger part of propulsion than in skating for some races/racers. Or even the only part.

Good point. Unfortunately, this does not apply to me, haha!

Yeah, I have an ongoing friendly sparring match with a local xc ski buddy who - for some good reasons - maintains that classic is "real" skiing and skate is just a dark side aberration. One of my retorts is: "There are two basic disciplines in xc: Skate and Double Poling." I'll pass on the Double Poling.

 

[Tony S]

but when you go out on track, difference is simply unbelievable

How do we account for that?

 

[Primoz]

Yeah as @jt10000 wrote... classic changed more in last few years then skating did. I mean everything got way more powerfull then it was, but you put way more power into poles on classic then on skating. With skating still at least 40% of work is done with legs, while with classic. especially when talking about double poling, and nowadays double poling is some 70 to 80% of classic skiing, poles are only part where power from your body goes to snow and makes you move forward. So this extreme stiffness of current poles is much more obvious in classic then in skating.
As for "this doesn't apply to me"... thing is technique changed a lot too. Before most of power with double poling came from hands. Now hands play very minor part with it, your back, core, stomach and even glutes are thing that make you move forward. After some 50km of double poling your hands are not even tired, everything else is

 

[Primoz]

Yeah, I have an ongoing friendly sparring match with a local xc ski buddy who - for some good reasons - maintains that classic is "real" skiing and skate is just a dark side aberration. One of my retorts is: "There are two basic disciplines in xc: Skate and Double Poling." I'll pass on the Double Poling.

I already like your xc ski buddy! First is, xc skiing is REAL skiing, alpine is just not real skiing. When then going forward, it's true that classic is REAL skiing, and skating is just, well skating
PS: Didn't get that "how do we account for that". Sorry my English is certainly not getting better with years