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Classic Techniques to Remind us where we came from, how far we have come

dan ross

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went down the rabbit hole even further just to remind myself of how this turn worked and I remembered the hard parts. Figures 2-4 - the transfer had to be dead on both in direction so you didn’t bobble your line and the weight transfer had to be seamless and decisive. Too early and again your line is messed up and you scrub speed ,too late and you again lose speed by being too low
D00B9993-E6B6-483F-A984-C41012432CE2.jpeg
or worse, drag the outside ski. All of this is a coordinated “split second “movement with little room for error. I never had it down so it was seamless, always felt like I was skating or worse ,Benny Hill on skis.
 
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RoninSkier

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An excerpt from a good article by Brooks Dodge that encapsulates the difference in words. Thoeni transferred from outside to inside to “ accelerate “. That transfer is what we called the “ step”. Easier said than done . Much. :D View attachment 197297
Odermat and a few others do modern variations of this - not stepping but jumping....
On a tight combo, coming in low (technically late) into a gate on a fast line.... then jumping up hill & forward and locking in edges in a new steering angle towards the next gate for another fast line.

They are amazing
 
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RoninSkier

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The elegant (but sorta functional useless) reverse shoulder, legs clamped together, hip dump style of the great Stein Erikson -
1679230412470.png

In his later yrs using shaped skis his style changes to a more modern technique - but still using clamped together legs
 
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RoninSkier

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The Italians, who I think are the most elegant beautiful modern day skiers carries on the 'style in technique' tradition.
Great to look at, but very taxing to emulate..... I still try.
The great Olympic medalist Georgio Rocca
1679230672610.png


Alessandro Bossi
1679230797251.png


The luscious Olympic medalist Daniela Ceccarelli
1679230940853.png

 
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markojp

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Just curious, how is Georgio's and D.C.'s skiing specifically Italian?

(I like Stephano B's skiing alot!)
 

dan ross

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I
Imagine these guys skiing like this with boots with no cuffs - masters of pure ballance, finesse.
Now they had SOFT flexing boots.

Wunderbar! Great find James!

My first boots were like theirs - hand me down leather/plastic Koflachs with laces + cable.
The first boots I remember were leather buckled Riekers , skis were taller than me and cable heels. - ski swap skis . I’m sure learning on low leather boots helped develop balance.
 

JESinstr

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Of course it does. It gets there first. Or, it is blocking and in the way.
Just like in running and changing direction. It leads, but the outside is the power and does the work. Balance should be transferred to what will become the outside early.

What in the videos leads you to your statement?

First, we shouldn't confuse the act of locomotion with our stance and how we dynamically balance in skiing. That's what screws a lot of people up in the first place.

There is no question that the inside leg must clear for the outside leg, but it is vertical separation (visible at the knees) that plays the initial & key role in the clearing action IMO. Lateral movement of the inside knee happens a little behind and in concert with the outside knee, but it does not lead. Just watch the video.

My post was aimed at those who advocate an initiation like this.
1679256744351.png
 

KevinF

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Other greats - Wayne Wong, a Cdn hot dogger along with Johnny Johnson & Michel Daigle pioneered modern free style in Canada. One of my examiners, Heather Bilodeau, a CSIA/CSCF purist, referred to hog doggers as weiners.
I briefly met Wayne on the hill on Seymour Mtn Vancouver Canada. He skied up to us (we smuggly thought we were the best on the mtn) skiing in blistering ultra SR turns, commented 'you guys should get shorter skis', then skied away.
This video was shot at tiny Nashoba Valley in the Boston suburbs. Nashoba is owned by Pam Fletcher, former US Olympian.

Pam and Wayne are apparently good friends so Wayne comes by every season for a few days and skis with whoever shows up and tells stories.

I’m in that video (10:45 or so). That was one of the great days I’ve had on skis. What a great ambassador for skiing. Thanks for finding that.
 

Roundturns

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A couple of years ago, late Sunday PM, I was skiing Whistle Pig bumps at Vail and I spotted Wayne Wong skiing by himself. I was hoping to catch a chair with him but never did. Brought out the “ little kid” in me spotting a ski hero- icon.
 
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RoninSkier

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First, we shouldn't confuse the act of locomotion with our stance and how we dynamically balance in skiing. That's what screws a lot of people up in the first place.

There is no question that the inside leg must clear for the outside leg, but it is vertical separation (visible at the knees) that plays the initial & key role in the clearing action IMO. Lateral movement of the inside knee happens a little behind and in concert with the outside knee, but it does not lead. Just watch the video.

My post was aimed at those who advocate an initiation like this.
View attachment 197340
Harb grew up in the Austrian system. Then he was involved in the Cdn ski racing program.
In the 70s 80s coaches were telling racers to ski with their toes - roll/sense the edge from big toe to little toe - the met head of those toes.

Harbs roll the foot/knee technique idea is an extension of the ski with your toes idea IMHO.

He is a beautiful skier & an innovator..... perhaps a bit temperamental when questioned.
 

markojp

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He is a beautiful skier & an innovator..... perhaps a bit temperamental when questioned.

Just a bit. :roflmao:

I made a tongue in cheek comment on a very old friend's FB feed related to skiing, and I think PSIA if i recall, and HH jumps in to rip me a new one. My friend and I both posted a gracious reply letting him know that he was off base and made vast and incorrect assumptions about our understanding of skiing on a post that I think most here would have understood the intended humor.

I recall mentioning to him that his skiing and program spoke for itself, and that he didn't need PSIA, or FB comments as a public foil... or any foil at all. I guess some folks need an axe to grind for motivation. I don't get it, but to each his own.
 

JESinstr

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Harb grew up in the Austrian system. Then he was involved in the Cdn ski racing program.
In the 70s 80s coaches were telling racers to ski with their toes - roll/sense the edge from big toe to little toe - the met head of those toes.

Harbs roll the foot/knee technique idea is an extension of the ski with your toes idea IMHO.

He is a beautiful skier & an innovator..... perhaps a bit temperamental when questioned.

No doubt that he is an excellent skier. But from a teaching perspective, I find it hard to understand how him teaching to initiate like this

1679316830518.png


Leads to him initiating like this.
Screenshot 2023-03-20 085421.jpg


As I stated in my post above, (and what he is doing here) it is vertical separation of the legs, not lateral, we should be implementing in terms of initiation and clearing for the outside ski.

As with the wedge, I understand the argument that sometimes we have to teach something only having to undo it at a later stage of development. But IMO, the wedge allows the student to focus on outside ski GRIP first and foremost. The "hooking" technique seems to thwart that objective but as @markojp said, to each their own.
 

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justplanesteve

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This should put to rest the assertion by some that the inside knee and ski plays a key role in leading us into the new turn.

2:00 thru 2:30?

This seems to me to be becoming a semantic differentiation.
Or maybe i need a better break-down. MA is new to me.
But what i think i see is (warning: trigger word!) dorsiflection with anterior tibialis as the knee raises, door opens and inside ski moves forward.

Am i completely mis-understanding what i am seeing, or is my description not correct for describing inside knee action?
 

markojp

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I don't have any trouble working with the inside foot/knee/leg... building awareness is part of the deal. Things will begin to look/become simultaneous as movements are mastered. I'm also happy to work on the outside bits as well, and anything else that improves effective outcomes.
 

markojp

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2:00 thru 2:30?

This seems to me to be becoming a semantic differentiation.
Or maybe i need a better break-down. MA is new to me.
But what i think i see is (warning: trigger word!) dorsiflection with anterior tibialis as the knee raises, door opens and inside ski moves forward.

Am i completely mis-understanding what i am seeing, or is my description not correct for describing inside knee action?

Think foot, not knee, and you're getting closer! Also there isn't an active 'slide the foot forward' component in effective skiing. Tip lead is a resultant (and shoukd be minimalized), not an active outcome goal. Cuff pressure for both feet, especially the inside foot, can be controlled by raising the top of the foot (instep) to the top of the boot to fire the Tibialis Anterior to keep feet under us.
 

Tricia

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This video was shot at tiny Nashoba Valley in the Boston suburbs. Nashoba is owned by Pam Fletcher, former US Olympian.

Pam and Wayne are apparently good friends so Wayne comes by every season for a few days and skis with whoever shows up and tells stories.

I’m in that video (10:45 or so). That was one of the great days I’ve had on skis. What a great ambassador for skiing. Thanks for finding that.
Wayne lives near us in Reno. We bump into him from time to time.

Sadly, he's going through a rough spot right now because his wife suddenly died on Christmas Eve of a heart attack. Completely unexpected.
:(
 

JESinstr

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This should put to rest the assertion by some that the inside knee and ski plays a key role in leading us into the new turn.

2:00 thru 2:30?

This seems to me to be becoming a semantic differentiation.
Or maybe i need a better break-down. MA is new to me.
But what i think i see is (warning: trigger word!) dorsiflection with anterior tibialis as the knee raises, door opens and inside ski moves forward.

Am i completely mis-understanding what i am seeing, or is my description not correct for describing inside knee action?
Not trying to go down a rabbit hole here.
1. Was commenting on why some advocate the teaching of hooking their inside ski to initiate a turn.
2. We don't get pulled into a turn, we get pushed.
3. Whatever it takes to make the outside ski a more effective and efficient "pusher", I am for.
 

JESinstr

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Wayne lives near us in Reno. We bump into him from time to time.

Sadly, he's going through a rough spot right now because his wife suddenly died on Christmas Eve of a heart attack. Completely unexpected.
:(
Sorry to hear. I got to clinic with him back in the 70's while he was at our area for a show. Best 2 hours I ever spent on skis.
 

Bad Bob

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Not trying to go down a rabbit hole here.
1. Was commenting on why some advocate the teaching of hooking their inside ski to initiate a turn.
2. We don't get pulled into a turn, we get pushed.
3. Whatever it takes to make the outside ski a more effective and efficient "pusher", I am for.
With current equipment would not agree with #2. There are more ways to initiate a turn than ever; you can imitate a turn from your shoulders to your toes, and over the last 100 years they have all been looked at as 'the right way to ski'. All of them still work but the efficiency will vary a lot.
Skiing is not based on an isolated instant seen in a still photograph, it is continuous motion to flow down a mountain. The gnarlier the mountain the more varied and interesting the motions can become. Would contend our evolving techniques have way more to do with slope grooming and equipment than improvement of skiing.
It is a state of the art, not an art of the state thing.
 

JESinstr

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With current equipment would not agree with #2. There are more ways to initiate a turn than ever; you can imitate a turn from your shoulders to your toes, and over the last 100 years they have all been looked at as 'the right way to ski'. All of them still work but the efficiency will vary a lot.
Skiing is not based on an isolated instant seen in a still photograph, it is continuous motion to flow down a mountain. The gnarlier the mountain the more varied and interesting the motions can become. Would contend our evolving techniques have way more to do with slope grooming and equipment than improvement of skiing.
It is a state of the art, not an art of the state thing.
Totally agree on the "Isolated instant" comment. That being said, there may be confusion regarding the term "turn".
It important to differentiate between redirection of the skier and redirection of the skis when we use the term "turn". Do we consider a Pivot Slip a turn? A ski can only do 2 things. It can slide or it can carve (create circular travel). Most of us are usually doing a combination which we call skidding.

The Question is: Are you trying to slide or trying to carve and is it intentional or unintentional? The answer may dictate whether or not you are in skiing or survival mode. Bottom line is we do what we do to navigate the slope while protecting ourselves.

If carving is the goal, current equipment is exactly why (now more than ever) we need to understand the concept of being pushed into the turn. The shaping and improved bending technology of the modern ski is specifically designed for the carving process which creates Centripetal force. Being that Centripetal force is an inward, accelerating force, that means the ski is being directed (pushed) into the turn. We could still carve on the old technology of course, just not as dynamically as today.
 
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