Classic Techniques to Remind us where we came from, how far we have come

[Bad Bob]

@JESinstr, do we agree that a turn involves redirecting a ski and the skier?
There are so many more ways to redirect (turn) the skis.
Every week in the winter you see the a racer redirecting the skis in the air off a roller.
Additionally it can be: stepped 1000 step drill. Hopped, Gorilla turns or peddle turns. Stivet or slarve, combine carve and skid in the same turn on demand. Airplane turn, in the bumps. And not quite sure how you would fit a telemark turn into the descriptions.

Why limit ourselves? Most of these and a whole lot more have been involved with 'techniques' of the past and the present and probably the future.

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr, do we agree that a turn involves redirecting a ski and the skier?
There are so many more ways to redirect (turn) the skis.
Every week in the winter you see the a racer redirecting the skis in the air off a roller.
Additionally it can be: stepped 1000 step drill. Hopped, Gorilla turns or peddle turns. Stivet or slarve, combine carve and skid in the same turn on demand. Airplane turn, in the bumps. And not quite sure how you would fit a telemark turn into the descriptions.

Why limit ourselves? Most of these and a whole lot more have been involved with 'techniques' of the past and the present and probably the future.

Well, kinda. There is Centripetal redirection and biomechanical redirection. As you rightly point out, there are many ways to biomechanically redirect the skis, but Centripetal redirection is a single, specific resultant of that force. Hmm, "Centripetal Redirection", can that be the skill definition of Carving?

I get your point though, if your intent is to travel from point A to point B in a circular path, there are many ways to initiate that action. Same goes for traveling straight line.

 

[justplanesteve]

Also there isn't an active 'slide the foot forward' component in effective skiing. Tip lead is a resultant (and shoukd be minimalized), not an active outcome goal. Cuff pressure for both feet, especially the inside foot, can be controlled by raising the top of the foot (instep) to the top of the boot to fire the Tibialis Anterior to keep feet under

I believe that is what i described.
Hence my comment on the earlier post that it becomes a semantic issue.

One problem is that the suggestion: "lead by activating the tibialis anterior" just does not have the clarity of "raise the inside knee" or "lead with the inside knee" or "shorten (or lighten) the inside leg" combined with a demo actually show dorsiflection, opening the door, and knee raise all at once, more or less. OTOH you are probably working with higher level students than my beginners and intermediates.

I do appreciate any discussion, it is vastly useful as i work through the theory of this stuff.

Thanks!

smt

 

[markojp]

I believe that is what i described.
Hence my comment on the earlier post that it becomes a semantic issue.

One problem is that the suggestion: "lead by activating the tibialis anterior" just does not have the clarity of "raise the inside knee" or "lead with the inside knee" or "shorten (or lighten) the inside leg" combined with a demo actually show dorsiflection, opening the door, and knee raise all at once, more or less. OTOH you are probably working with higher level students than my beginners and intermediates.

I do appreciate any discussion, it is vastly useful as i work through the theory of this stuff.

Thanks!

smt

I work with everyone and all ages. I've used raising the top of the foot to the top of the boot with success with first time adult skiers. It's not difficult. I also am not clear on what raising a knee would accomplish other than excessive tip lead.

 

[Chris V.]

My post was aimed at those who advocate an initiation like this.
View attachment 197340

How much of that is for training, and how much for the target skiing technique?

 

[Chris V.]

No doubt that he is an excellent skier. But from a teaching perspective, I find it hard to understand how him teaching to initiate like this

View attachment 197426

Leads to him initiating like this.
View attachment 197427

Leads to not A-framing, stemming, or pivoting?

 

[justplanesteve]

I work with everyone and all ages. I've used raising the top of the foot to the top of the boot with success with first time adult skiers. It's not difficult. I also am not clear on what raising a knee would accomplish other than excessive tip lead.

We are continuing to misunderstand each other's words.
I have given 2 descriptions of what happens including"lead by activating the tibialis anterior" .
The other quoted items are things i have heard from other, sometimes high level instructors.
I continue to argue my first point: semantics is situational.
I expect we all try to coach the student in the direction they need to go.....and that in the moment sometimes try a range of suggestions until the student hears what they need to hear to adapt or effect the motion. Then we adapt and correct to try to forestall future problems. All in short periods of time.

What is your description of the process that is happening between 2:00 & 2:30 in the video?


smt

 

[JESinstr]

How much of that is for training, and how much for the target skiing technique?

Clearly, it's not for technique otherwise you would see it in his free skiing videos. We all use "hooking" from time to time but that's because we get caught out of balance or as a cheat when we are too impatient for the outside ski to grip. IMO

 

[JESinstr]

No doubt that he is an excellent skier. But from a teaching perspective, I find it hard to understand how him teaching to initiate like this

View attachment 197426

Leads to him initiating like this.
View attachment 197427

As I stated in my post above, (and what he is doing here) it is vertical separation of the legs, not lateral, we should be implementing in terms of initiation and clearing for the outside ski.

As with the wedge, I understand the argument that sometimes we have to teach something only having to undo it at a later stage of development. But IMO, the wedge allows the student to focus on outside ski GRIP first and foremost. The "hooking" technique seems to thwart that objective but as @markojp said, to each their own.

Leads to not A-framing, stemming, or pivoting?

If you are using vertical clearing of the inside leg at initiation, it supports directing pressure to the outside ski (Fundamental #2) and reduces dependency on the inside ski in terms of creating grip at the expense of the outside ski. In that case, we should be able to rule out down stemming. If an A-Frame develops when shortening the inside leg, that is an anatomical issue not a grip induced phenomena. If you are doing short radius turns, then I would want the inside foot to pivot yes? And its easier to pivot when the ski is floating.

 

[James]

There is no question that the inside leg must clear for the outside leg, but it is vertical separation (visible at the knees) that plays the initial & key role in the clearing action IMO. Lateral movement of the inside knee happens a little behind and in concert with the outside knee, but it does not lead. Just watch the video.

As to your point, i think the video actually shows the opposite at times. Space opens up between his shins starting the turns. I guess by “vertical clearing” of the inside leg you mean lifting?

You’d have to ask the demonstrator what he’s focusing on to really know. But for me, I would focus on tipping and guiding the inside foot, shortening the inside leg. They may be so quick and short radius that you have to lift the inside foot. Of course all that is while balance is on the outside ski.

One can play with this solo on a chairlift. Do those turns in the air. I’ve never done them with feet that close, but it’s a good warmup exercise. I find that concentrating on the new inside foot is much faster/smoother.

The fundamental of balance/weight on the outside foot hasn’t changed in many decades. All the inside foot stuff doesn’t change that. Early transfer to the new outside is key.

Mikaela training at Loveland Feb 2016. On the outside, leading with the inside.

slo mo version-
Original vid by Eic Harbour

 

[JESinstr]

As to your point, i think the video actually shows the opposite at times. Space opens up between his shins starting the turns. I guess by “vertical clearing” of the inside leg you mean lifting?

At Times? By Vertical Clearing I mean softening ----> shortening. the inside leg. I am not advocating lifting the inside ski off the snow just not interfering with the mission of the outside ski either by blocking or non-focus.

You’d have to ask the demonstrator what he’s focusing on to really know. But for me, I would focus on tipping and guiding the inside foot, shortening the inside leg. They may be so quick and short radius that you have to lift the inside foot. Of course all that is while balance is on the outside ski.

no problem tipping and guiding so long as it is in concert with the actions of outside ski.

One can play with this solo on a chairlift. Do those turns in the air. I’ve never done them with feet that close, but it’s a good warmup exercise. I find that concentrating on the new inside foot is much faster/smoother.

So you are talking rotary here and not carving? Try doing dynamic short radius wedge turns down a blue and then blend into parallel and let me know what leg is doing all the work in both stances.

The fundamental of balance/weight on the outside foot hasn’t changed in many decades. All the inside foot stuff doesn’t change that. Early transfer to the new outside is key.

Well, now you seem to have switched your position. And yes it does if you are advocating that the inside foot plays a role in pulling you into the turn.

Mikaela training at Loveland Feb 2016. On the outside, leading with the inside.

Notwithstanding the demands of a Slamon course, it appears she is applying some inside tip divergence and that may be ok for navigating gates but I don't think any organization promotes tip divergence in their recreational protocols.

 

[justplanesteve]

Try doing dynamic short radius wedge turns down a blue and then blend into parallel and let me know what leg is doing all the work in both stances.

Despite your previous assertion, maybe you have not had NE's or second lesson beginners recently.
It can be almost comical to watch an active, enthusiastic early beginner who is staying toward the middle of their skis, try to start the wedge turn by first weighting the outside ski, and seeing them continue in a straight-ahead sideways slide, until they figure it out or the remiss instructor stops them and starts over by discussing & modeling getting the inside edge light. At which point the inside ski slightly leads, weight moves more forward on the outside ski and the outside comes around. It's one of the reasons i have many of them stepping (1,000 steps), and occasionally doing stork turns at that point (sometime in lesson 2 or early lesson 3). Kids go to parallel much faster when they learn to open the gate early in the lesson progression. Conversely, a kid who is back in a "snowplow" can transfer weight first to the outside ski and turn but that is not what we are trying to develop.

 

[locknload]

The great P J Jones (PSIA 4 & master instructor) demonstrating 'modern' ski technique development.
With the advent of shaped skis pretty well all of this, except for a couple, are in the wastebasket.

This is gorgeous. Love the Stein reverse shoulder...I want to try that! How does "Italian" anticipation differentiate itself from "American" anticipation? lol

 

[markojp]

Despite your previous assertion, maybe you have not had NE's or second lesson beginners recently.
It can be almost comical to watch an active, enthusiastic early beginner who is staying toward the middle of their skis, try to start the wedge turn by first weighting the outside ski, and seeing them continue in a straight-ahead sideways slide, until they figure it out or the remiss instructor stops them and starts over by discussing & modeling getting the inside edge light. At which point the inside ski slightly leads, weight moves more forward on the outside ski and the outside comes around. It's one of the reasons i have many of them stepping (1,000 steps), and occasionally doing stork turns at that point (sometime in lesson 2 or early lesson 3). Kids go to parallel much faster when they learn to open the gate early in the lesson progression. Conversely, a kid who is back in a "snowplow" can transfer weight first to the outside ski and turn but that is not what we are trying to develop.

Never have had a problem with it teaching adult beginners including first timers. Everyone's MMV.

IMHO, if i can't teach an adult beginner effectively, I have no business teaching experts.

 

[JESinstr]

Despite your previous assertion, maybe you have not had NE's or second lesson beginners recently.
It can be almost comical to watch an active, enthusiastic early beginner who is staying toward the middle of their skis, try to start the wedge turn by first weighting the outside ski, and seeing them continue in a straight-ahead sideways slide, until they figure it out or the remiss instructor stops them and starts over by discussing & modeling getting the inside edge light. At which point the inside ski slightly leads, weight moves more forward on the outside ski and the outside comes around. It's one of the reasons i have many of them stepping (1,000 steps), and occasionally doing stork turns at that point (sometime in lesson 2 or early lesson 3). Kids go to parallel much faster when they learn to open the gate early in the lesson progression. Conversely, a kid who is back in a "snowplow" can transfer weight first to the outside ski and turn but that is not what we are trying to develop.

I am confused at where you are coming from here.
We are in total agreement if you are implying that the old inside leg (via the release of pressure) initiates the commitment of mass to the inside edge of the outside ski. What I do not agree with is that we should be using inside ski edging (which requires inside leg pressure) to pull you into the turn which is how the Harb progression is designed.

If your students are in a wedge configuration but are sliding straight when trying to turn, it's that they have not been taught much about angulation and edge control. IMO

 

[justplanesteve]

Let's get back to where this all started & skip the digressions.
Originally apparent alternate perspectives or alternate descriptions of what is happening in a segment of video, and whether the turn starts with inside leg initiation, or (my impression of your point?) an outside leg move.

Here's what i am trying to understand: what is your description of the process that is happening between 2:00 & 2:30 in the video?

 

[RoninSkier]

This is gorgeous. Love the Stein reverse shoulder...I want to try that! How does "Italian" anticipation differentiate itself from "American" anticipation? lol

As Deb Armstrong state - we intructors tend to overbake things

 

[RoninSkier]

The great P J Jones (PSIA 4) a master instructor demonstrating techniques in the 1980s that are still used today, even in WC, with refinements/adaptions with different names.


P J demoing the 1980s bump technique - instructor style - nice & pretty


And as a 61yr old bump skier. He used to run clinics at Mt Hood, dont know if he is still alive..... one of the greats, a true master instructor.

 

[RoninSkier]

Another old fart, a beautiful skier and good instructor. Dont know who he is, a student claims the guy is in his 70s.

 

[Peak203f]

From the 'Episode Three' video:
"...... Feb 26, 2021
Warning: Old farts on skis, not suitable for younger viewers. In this episode, former coach of the Canadian National Ski Team, Glenn Wurtele (now almost 70!)....."