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dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Hi All, wanted to pile one and provide an update. DPS customer service was great and sent me a new phantom pack after my first application did not cure properly. Second times a charm and am seeing some great performance from my skis in this case Volkl V-werks RTMs. Plan on applying Phantom to additional skis when the weather permits as I bought a three pack during the kickstarter campaign.

I have also connected with the folks in Europe who make Juice which is now call Giga Glide (www.gigaglide.com). They sent me some samples of their Permanent Glide and Instant Glide to try out. Just applied a treatment to my Nordica Enforcer 93s and my wife's Head Total Joy. Will be testing these out on a trip to Sun Peaks in a coupe of days and will come back with a side by side comparison of performance. What I will say is that compare to Phantom the Giga Glide application process is much simpler and feels a little more scientific as they actually have you measure out how much you apply to your base using a surface area calculator. Basically you thoroughly clean your bases (grinding is recommended), apply their Permanent Glide, let in dry for a minute or two, then wipe it off and roto brush your skis. It then take 24 hours for the skis to cure and you are good to go.

For those of you interested in a cold weather update, I will be able to provide that too as yesterday is was -7 in Sun Peaks

Will post a detailed update in weeks time when we get back from Sun Peaks - both side by side comparison as well as cold weather performance feedback.
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
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What was the issue again with your first Phantom application? lack of sun strength and cure time?, or bad chemicals out of the packet? or something else?
 
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dovski

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Hi All, wanted to pile one and provide an update. DPS customer service was great and sent me a new phantom pack after my first application did not cure properly. Second times a charm and am seeing some great performance from my skis in this case Volkl V-werks RTMs. Plan on applying Phantom to additional skis when the weather permits as I bought a three pack during the kickstarter campaign.

I have also connected with the folks in Europe who make Juice which is now call Giga Glide (www.gigaglide.com). They sent me some samples of their Permanent Glide and Instant Glide to try out. Just applied a treatment to my Nordica Enforcer 93s and my wife's Head Total Joy. Will be testing these out on a trip to Sun Peaks in a coupe of days and will come back with a side by side comparison of performance. What I will say is that compare to Phantom the Giga Glide application process is much simpler and feels a little more scientific as they actually have you measure out how much you apply to your base using a surface area calculator. Basically you thoroughly clean your bases (grinding is recommended), apply their Permanent Glide, let in dry for a minute or two, then wipe it off and roto brush your skis. It then take 24 hours for the skis to cure and you are good to go.

For those of you interested in a cold weather update, I will be able to provide that too as yesterday is was -7 in Sun Peaks

Will post a detailed update in weeks time when we get back from Sun Peaks - both side by side comparison as well as cold weather performance feedback.
Hi All,

I just got back from Sun Peaks and wanted to provide an update. Turns out I did not have room in our ski box for an extra pair of skis so was not able to do the side by side comparison, that will have to wait until this weekend at Alpental when I will ski both skis side by side. I will say that the Giga Glide permanent did not disappoint. Over 4 days in sub zero temperatures (-24 C on our last day) my skis performed very well, in fact I would say on par with my other skis with Phantom applied. From my perspective both products work. Similar to Phantom Giga Glide needed to be skied in, though they do recommend a light grind after the skis cure which I assume would eliminate the need to ski them in.

Similar to Phantom, Giga Glide did not kick in until I picked up a little speed. Both products are hydrophobic so will not perform well until your bases create enough friction to melt some snow. With this in mind I had McSporty's in Sun Peaks grind and structure my bases before I left so I can test the Gig glide after a tune and with a different structure. I am going to do the same with my skis with Phantom.

So far my take away is that both products do what they say they are going to do, however Giga Glide has a much simpler application process and more prescriptive guidance. That said Giga Glide only wants to sell Permanent to shops as they are concerned with the quality of the application process. DPS on the other hand is selling direct to consumers, but has a much more involved application process.

One thing I have noticed with both products is that they do not prevent the bases from drying out. For that reason along I am going to continue to wax my skis periodically. McSporty's in Sun Peaks is planning to treat their entire rental fleet with Phantom this summer, but also plan to keep on waxing the skis. They have spent a lot of time talking to DPS and their view is that products like Phantom and Giga Glide are something that will compliment not replace waxing, especially for those of us using temperature specific wax and looking to maximize performance, I tend to agree with them.

I will provide another update after my side by side comparison this weekend.
 
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dovski

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Hi All,

I just got back from Sun Peaks and wanted to provide an update. Turns out I did not have room in our ski box for an extra pair of skis so was not able to do the side by side comparison, that will have to wait until this weekend at Alpental when I will ski both skis side by side. I will say that the Giga Glide permanent did not disappoint. Over 4 days in sub zero temperatures (-24 C on our last day) my skis performed very well, in fact I would say on par with my other skis with Phantom applied. From my perspective both products work. Similar to Phantom Giga Glide needed to be skied in, though they do recommend a light grind after the skis cure which I assume would eliminate the need to ski them in.

Similar to Phantom, Giga Glide did not kick in until I picked up a little speed. Both products are hydrophobic so will not perform well until your bases create enough friction to melt some snow. With this in mind I had McSporty's in Sun Peaks grind and structure my bases before I left so I can test the Gig glide after a tune and with a different structure. I am going to do the same with my skis with Phantom.

So far my take away is that both products do what they say they are going to do, however Giga Glide has a much simpler application process and more prescriptive guidance. That said Giga Glide only wants to sell Permanent to shops as they are concerned with the quality of the application process. DPS on the other hand is selling direct to consumers, but has a much more involved application process.

One thing I have noticed with both products is that they do not prevent the bases from drying out. For that reason along I am going to continue to wax my skis periodically. McSporty's in Sun Peaks is planning to treat their entire rental fleet with Phantom this summer, but also plan to keep on waxing the skis. They have spent a lot of time talking to DPS and their view is that products like Phantom and Giga Glide are something that will compliment not replace waxing, especially for those of us using temperature specific wax and looking to maximize performance, I tend to agree with them.

I will provide another update after my side by side comparison this weekend.
Hi All,

Skis ground and structured and side by side test complete. Both Phantom and Giga Glide performed very well after the grind. Without have the exact same ski with the two separate treatments side by side it is hard to say which ones truly perform better, but compared to each ski with no wax or the wrong wax, both permanent glide treatments performed better. The aggressive structure also appears to have increased performance as both skis where skiing much faster. With both products I am noticing a greying of my ski base, which is indicative of both oxidation and the base drying out. for that reason alone I am going to continue waxing my skis though not as frequently as before.

Like everyone else the skis have been a little grippy while standing in the lift line, but that goes away once you start moving. My hunch is that you need enough friction to create water under the ski for either treatment to work well. This would also explain why DPS shows Phantom performance increasing in warmer weather.

The big question is which product is better, and that is a tough one as both deliver very similar performance both before and after a grind. Here are my pros and cons for each:

DPS Phantom Pros:
  1. performs as promised
  2. excellent customer support from DPS
  3. readily available for purchase both online and in some stores
Cons:
  1. Time intensive application process
  2. Application process dependent on the weather - you need 6+ hours of direct sunlight
  3. High price point - $100 per application
Giga Glide Permanent Pros:
  1. Performs as promised
  2. Very simple application process - application takes 2-3 min once ski is prepped and then 24 hours to cure with no outside dependencies
  3. Reasonable price point - they claim around $10-15 per set of skis
Cons
  1. No US distribution so very hard to buy
  2. Targeted at ski shops not consumers - They want professionals applying this and using a stone grinder before and after to deliver the best results so do not have a consumer product for Giga Glide Permanent or consumer customer support - that said they were very helpful and engaging when I reached out to them, but can that scale?
Bottom line is that if you know what your are doing either of these products will deliver excellent results and can easily be applied at home. Both products claim to harden your ski base and according to Giga Glide their product will help the base better accept wax should you chose to wax. For those of you who apply these treatments make sure you also put in a nice structure on your base as that makes a huge difference to their performance.

On a personal note I really preferred the application process for Giga Glide as compared to Phantom as it was quick and easy with little room for error and no weather dependencies. As you may recall my first attempt to apply Phantom did not go well due to weak sun in Seattle, but DPS customer support was amazing and made things right very quickly as they have done for several other folks who had challenges with the application process. DPS is working on an indoor solution for curing Phantom which I think will be key to its long term success. I still have 2 phantom applications left and plan to apply them to skis this summer when it is nice and sunny ogsmile In the mean time I am going to ski the heck out of my skis to see how both applications hold up over the season. I have also applied treatments to my wife and older kids' skis (so 5 pairs total) and will track their feedback too.
 

GigaGlide

Born by tribology and nanotech
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I would like to thank Dovski for his objective review.

But first I would like to say that he is in no way connected to GigaGlide, nor did we pay him in any way.
He is just a ski fanatic who asked us, if he could test our product.
 
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GigaGlide

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We are talking with some distributors at this moment, so you will be able to find our products in the US as soon as possible.

We do have the Permanent Glide in testing packages, but we do not intend it to sell it directly to consumers at this moment.
What we did find out in Europe, that ski shops who are applying it to their rental skis, are helping or selling it to their good customers, ski instructors, ...
Please comment if this would be different in the US market.

As our product cures with air, it is far easier to apply and more dummy proof :ogcool:

This does have one disadvantage: a limitid shelf life of 6 months.
So this is most probably why (perhaps also for patent reasons) that DPS went for the UV solution. This gives the product an unlimited shelf life.
In my opinion they underestimated the UV curing problem a little bit.
 

PTskier

Been goin' downhill for years....
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in Europe, that ski shops who are applying it to their rental skis
The European rentals of top line skis is big business. In the U.S. rentals of demo or high performance skis is a much smaller business. Most rentals are low end skis for lower level skiers, and wax is not an issue except for a few people on warm, wet days. Most U.S. skiers own their skis and bring them to the ski mountains. That is the main market for any ski base treatment.
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
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When you say it has a "six month shelf life", do you mean that the unapplied product can only sit on the shelf waiting to be applied for six months? Or do you mean that the wax effect once applied only lasts six months?
 
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dovski

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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I forgot to mention that Giga
The European rentals of top line skis is big business. In the U.S. rentals of demo or high performance skis is a much smaller business. Most rentals are low end skis for lower level skiers, and wax is not an issue except for a few people on warm, wet days. Most U.S. skiers own their skis and bring them to the ski mountains. That is the main market for any ski base treatment.
I second that, US ski market is very different. Also many who rent skis will take an annual rental package vs. a daily rental package. Annual rentals are big business for many local stores. On hill rentals are a different story, but even there most hills have some sort of annual package.
 

GigaGlide

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When you say it has a "six month shelf life", do you mean that the unapplied product can only sit on the shelf waiting to be applied for six months? Or do you mean that the wax effect once applied only lasts six months?
The first one indeed, after this period the quality can no longer be guaranteed.
 
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dovski

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Ok I figured out one more test I am going to try with these permanent glide applications. With both products I am using (Phantom and Giga Glide Permanent) you need to ski in the treatment. In other words snow polish the skis to smooth out the base and remove any extra residue. Giga Glide recommends you give your skis a light grind to polish the base, but I do not have a decent grinder in my garage nor the justification for buying one. My wife is super picky about her skis - in the past if I put on the wrong wax she would complain that I broke her skis :). With this in mind I am going to try giving the bases a light rub down with swix fibertex pads before skiing followed by a polish with my nylon roto brush. In theory I think this should eliminate the need to ski in the product so will keep you posted on how this goes.

In April during spring skiing I am going experiment with some temporary products to compare performance. Planning on comparing the following three:
  1. Swix F4 paste. I have used this in the past with mixed results when I am not able to properly wax my skis. It is easy to apply but does not seem to last very long
  2. Fast Stick - a new product that just came out. It looks like a stick of deodorant that you just rub on your skis. they claim in lasts a full day
  3. Giga Glide Instant Glide - spray on hydrophobic product that is supposed to last for 5 days - hoping this works as well as their permanent glide
I will also be comparing these products to my skis with Phantom and Giga Glide Permanent. Hoping to find a great solution to my spring ski trips with wet sticky snow.
 

PisteOff

Jeff
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Ok I figured out one more test I am going to try with these permanent glide applications. With both products I am using (Phantom and Giga Glide Permanent) you need to ski in the treatment. In other words snow polish the skis to smooth out the base and remove any extra residue. Giga Glide recommends you give your skis a light grind to polish the base, but I do not have a decent grinder in my garage nor the justification for buying one. My wife is super picky about her skis - in the past if I put on the wrong wax she would complain that I broke her skis :). With this in mind I am going to try giving the bases a light rub down with swix fibertex pads before skiing followed by a polish with my nylon roto brush. In theory I think this should eliminate the need to ski in the product so will keep you posted on how this goes.

In April during spring skiing I am going experiment with some temporary products to compare performance. Planning on comparing the following three:
  1. Swix F4 paste. I have used this in the past with mixed results when I am not able to properly wax my skis. It is easy to apply but does not seem to last very long
  2. Fast Stick - a new product that just came out. It looks like a stick of deodorant that you just rub on your skis. they claim in lasts a full day
  3. Giga Glide Instant Glide - spray on hydrophobic product that is supposed to last for 5 days - hoping this works as well as their permanent glide
I will also be comparing these products to my skis with Phantom and Giga Glide Permanent. Hoping to find a great solution to my spring ski trips with wet sticky snow.
working them over with some scotch-brite would likely work as well.....
 
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dovski

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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working them over with some scotch-brite would likely work as well.....
Ironically both are actually made by 3M and likely in the same factory, possibly of the same material at the exact same time :)
 

Philpug

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I am hoping to get a sample soon so I can do a comparison too.
 

GigaGlide

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Sorry I didn't react, but as I got the flu, yesterday I was still in bed with 103.46 F and couldn't stop shaking.:eek:

I think we can make @dovski happy: you don't need to grind the skis afterwards anymore.
Our head chemist tested it, together with some ski shops and it seemed this final step can be cancelled.
We did this together with the shops, as for them one step less means lot of time saved over +1.000 skis

We updated the site with the installation instructions
http://gigaglide.com/permanent-glide/


@Philpug: the goods left yesterday, should arrive between 7-10 days.
 
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dovski

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Great to hear Serge, once again thank you for the samples they have worked out great. Is there any way to buy some additional permanent as I would like to apply to several additional skis and I am sure there are several folks in the community who would love to try your product and compare to Phantom as well.

Thanks
 

Corgski

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One thing I have noticed with both products is that they do not prevent the bases from drying out. For that reason along I am going to continue to wax my skis periodically.
I have not heard much about this issue. Anyone other experiences or information on bases drying out?
 

dbostedo

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One thing I have noticed with both products is that they do not prevent the bases from drying out. For that reason along I am going to continue to wax my skis periodically.

I have not heard much about this issue. Anyone other experiences or information on bases drying out?

Is "drying out" really an issue? Couldn't it just be ignored? As it is, I usually just get my skis waxed once to twice a season. And if you have to wax for any reason, these products are pretty much worthless IMO.
 
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dovski

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
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Is "drying out" really an issue? Couldn't it just be ignored? As it is, I usually just get my skis waxed once to twice a season. And if you have to wax for any reason, these products are pretty much worthless IMO.
First off bases drying out is an issue,. Dry bases feel rough and get stringy which impacts ski performance. Over time this will damage your skis. This is the reason you should always put on storage wax at the end of the season. It is also a good reason to periodically wax your bases with a permanent glide finish.

Now here is the thing about wax, it is not permanent. I am heading to Mt. Bachelor for four days of skiing tomorrow, so I waxed my skis. After a day or two of hard skiing the wax is pretty much gone, but I will still have my permanent glide base so can enjoy the entire trip without having to wax my skis.

The other reason I wanted to wax is that Giga Glide claims that their base treatment actually improves wax adhesion, so I want to test that.

Another reason I am waxing is that this is a guys trip and I want my skis to be faster than my buddies all weekend. The permanent glide solutions are good, they work, but not as well as temperature specific wax. So I am waxing.

The nice thing with the permanent glide treatments (both Giga Glide and Phantom) is that I no longer have to wax as much as I used to. Instead of waxing my skis after every 2-3 days of use I am probably waxing after 10-12 days of use. You multiply that by the 12 pairs of skis my family has and can save me a ton of time.

Now for those of you who never wax your skis (which is most skiers) everything I just said doesn't matter because you never waxed your skis to start with. For you a permanent glide treatment is a big step up from where you are today
 

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