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Completing your turns

LiquidFeet

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When do you? When do you not?
To what end? How and why?

Instructors: What prohibits students from being able to complete their turns at will?
How do you teach them to overcome those prohibitions?
What's necessary for success?
How/when/where does being able to complete their turns benefit your students?

Race coaches: How do you advise your racers to think about completing their turns in the gates?
When is a completed turn beneficial and when not?
 

Chris V.

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"Complete your turns" is another one of those phrases that isn't self-explanatory and may have different meanings to different people.

Racers I believe may or may not want to be continuously carving. Sometimes a very rounded line is fastest. Sometimes it's faster to go more directly at gates and turn tightly around them. That could entail straight line drifts between turns. Those line choices are reserved for the most skilled racers, I would think. I'll have to leave it to others to expound on this.

At the lower intermediate level, many skiers have a pattern of making turns that are too shallow for speed control on the slopes they're on, and compensate by using braking movements for speed control. These are skiers who could benefit from "completing their turns" in the sense of just letting the arcs go on longer, of going farther across the hill with each turn. I think this is commonly a reflection of weak basic turn mechanics, of an inability to manage the forces that build as a turn continues. On the other hand, many skiers could do better than they imagine, and forcing themselves to make turns that go on longer may bring out improved movements. This is where simple "follow the leader" practice can bring big returns. Once skiers start repeating the necessary moves, they get better at them, even without further coaching.

A more subtle form of the "complete your turns" advice addresses the issues of skiers who are trying mightily to follow a good, rounded, rhythmic line, but whose grip on the snow deteriorates in the final phase of the turn. This often displays as a rotation of the body in the direction of the turn in that last part of the turn, a leaning to the inside, and a fairly abrupt divergence of the skis and development of a big tip lead in that phase. The skier might even be quite good at bringing the feet close together in the initiation phase, yet they drift apart at the end. This results from an effort to engage a moderately-weighted inside ski, and failure to balance over the inside edge of the outside ski, so that the outside ski breaks away. The deficiencies in the finishing phase of the turn stem from a lack of commitment to balancing on and moving with the outside ski earlier in the turn. Instead of riding out the turn on that one ski, the skier is hedging by using the inside ski in counterproductive fashion. As forces build, the outside ski can't hang on. This is seen not only in carved turns, but also in slipped or brushed turns. In the latter case, the skier isn't riding one edge of the outside ski, yet the commitment to that ski and the lateral displacement of that ski need to be smooth and continuous throughout a turn. The basic mechanics of a good turn remain the same.

A skier unable to maintain grip in the last part of a turn loses the momentum that would allow for an effective release, a cross-under movement, and a smooth movement of the body mass toward the inside of the new turn. So the skier is left with little choice but to slow down deliberately at the end of the turn, giving up momentum across the slope in favor of gravity which will start the body toppling down the hill, and supplementing this with a push off the new outside ski.

For such skiers, it's necessary to work on building the strength of the commitment to the outside ski, and the placement of body mass where it can fully engage that ski in the ongoing turn and be ready to move quickly toward the inside of the next turn. Exercises could include one-footed big toe edge traverses; garlands in which the skier practices an uphill carve to a slow speed, followed by a release until the skis point nearly downhill, followed by another uphill carve; downhill hand-to-boot touches; and one-footed outside ski turns. It may also be necessary to strengthen the tension of the muscles in the foot and ankle, and the ability to create and hold a bit of knee angulation, so as to counteract the tendency of building forces to want to roll a ski off edge. "Completing a turn" for these skiers will mean completing the finishing phase with grip and consistent turning action of the skis.
 
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François Pugh

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Welcome to Completing your turns 201. Have you read the prerequisite "finishing your turns 101"?
 

teejaywhy

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In the previous thread, I mentioned that "finishing your turns" was completely relatable to me (as a beginner) as a way to avoid the gradual increase in speed that happens when the turns are not "completed."

I was told that this phrase is not good teaching language and is confusing. "Ski the slow line fast" is what I should think about. I mentioned that this made absolutely no sense to me.

I was told that I probably am not really interested in learning/improving.
 

Steve

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One of the most misunderstood and overused terms, similar to the "quiet upper body" wording.

To an intermediate skier, braking and holding on to the bottom of the turn sure feels like completing it doesn't it?

Shopping for turns does too. You're definitely not turning too soon if you do that.

The meaning of the term to me has to do with continuing to turn in the old turn direction while you begin to release your edges and move over the skis into the next turn. Softening the bottom of the turn while completing it.

Braking at the bottom and waiting to turn is certainly completing the turn. The difference is that the concept includes starting the new turn while you're completing the old turn.
 

James

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Every time you turn downhill you accelerate. So, if you’re already going “too fast” in your mind, turning will have you go faster.
 
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LiquidFeet

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In the previous thread, I mentioned that "finishing your turns" was completely relatable to me (as a beginner) as a way to avoid the gradual increase in speed that happens when the turns are not "completed."

I was told that this phrase is not good teaching language and is confusing. "Ski the slow line fast" is what I should think about. I mentioned that this made absolutely no sense to me.

I was told that I probably am not really interested in learning/improving.
That is so wrong. You know it isn't true, right?
Reporting that instructor to the ski school director would have been reasonable.
 
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LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

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"Ski the slow line fast" is hard to wrap one's head around. YMMV. I do a mental double-take every time I apply it.

Drawings on the snow of "completing your turns" are a good antidote to confusion. It will show a round bottom of the turn, which is step one. This should be sufficient to keep a student from cutting off the bottom of the turn, or at least knowing that they need to learn how to avoid cutting it off.

But the drawings don't include how to manage releasing the old turn while completing it.

Step two is learning to flex that old outside leg while keeping both skis on their old uphill edges.
Gold star to any intermediate who teaches themselves this move. Conceptually this is a self-contradictory move. It asks the skier to hold onto the old turn while releasing it. A good thing to learn, but like some other things it's hard to wrap one's head around. Definitely worth the work.

The easier way to start the new turn while completing the old one is extending the old inside leg after the fall line. I teach this too, but it's not my first choice. This way of releasing the old turn after the fall line flattens the skis rather than holding them on their old edges, and that makes continuing the round path difficult. Extenders who use this movement pattern often skip the completion phase altogether. In addition, those flattened skis allow a pivoted turn entry, maybe even encourage it. A pivoted turn entry sometimes gets done quickly by a student worried about speed gain. That quick pivot can screw up the next turn, and once embedded, secure a solid place for the skier on the intermediate plateau.
 
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Disinterested

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I think the problem with the idea of turn completion is that advanced skiing is more about going where you want to go than trying to impose a fixed geometry on to your turn shape. That's still true in less advanced skiing, with the caveat that there's usually a competing concern about working out how to control speed efficiently. Using turn shape to control speed is obviously generally preferable to using active breaking mechanisms (though every mechanic has some role to play situationally), but it's pointless to point at a very strong skier and say 'he doesn't finish his turn' as if they're supposed to care, and yet curiously it happens all the time.

There is one caveat though - some people keep building speed and eventually get themselves in to a situation where if they had a lot of edge engagement they would not be able to manage the forces they'd created without exploding and they don't finish their turn for that reason. There's a lot of bros out there skidding around at scarily high speeds who think they're crushing it but are really just in a situation where if they tried to turn with any higher edge angle they'd fly out of their gear.
 

teejaywhy

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That is so wrong. You know it isn't true, right?
Reporting that instructor to the ski school director would have been reasonable.

It was someone here on PugSki... haha.. I took no offense. Would be different if I had paid for that. Was part of my bigger point that students learn differently and it is important for the instructor to figure out how to communicate effectively.
 

oldschoolskier

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@LiquidFeet had to read this several times, and still wonder if you are setting bait. If not, I’ll give this a try in a slightly different response.

Not being allowed to finish a turn is actually teaching that the transition to the next turn is variable and can occur as needed.

As an example, you are skiing along and some numb nut jumps in front of you, you take action to avoid and change direction. This is not completing the inital turn but initiating a new one.

Gates in racing are similar, while planned the course conditions change and you must adapt.

So is this valid teaching technique yes, if employed for the right reasons to teach a lesson of adaptability.
 

4ster

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On the surface it is pretty simple in ski racing. Your turn is finished when you hit the rise line. How high above the gate you hit the rise line depends on where the next gate is.
Beyond that it gets more complicated.
B3BC4CB6-41EE-4D6D-AAF6-416A1096ECEB.jpeg
(I think this diagram comes from effective skiing)
 
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geepers

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But the drawings don't include how to manage releasing the old turn while completing it.

Step two is learning to flex that old outside leg while keeping both skis on their old uphill edges.

Paid a lot of attention to turn transition this Oz season. Especially after all the Tom Gellie vids on the topic.

Think @Uke summed it up best here...
I have an infinitely variable, fully dependent/independent, multi-point suspension system at my disposal when I ski. This allows me to select which parts of my body I want to direct the grf to push around. I can stop pushing on the upper body which will then start to follow a ballistic path while still using the grf to push my feet along the path they are already following, These paths will cross.

uke

Came to the conclusion that the release of the upper body to topple just prior to flex of outside leg / release of edges is key to flow. It can happen almost simultaneously or over a slightly longer split second but it is body 1st.

It's key to flow in short turns/ bumps. And it greatly helps me in long turns where I do my level best to topple quickly to overcome my inbuilt need to re-establish stability by angulating too early. (Still working on the latter... :rolleyes:)




Sorry to keep harping on about TG - it's just he's been very productive with content for several months. Happens to be content relevant to my skiing at this point. YMMV.
 

geepers

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You have some good ones to recommend? The ones I watch I feel like I’m getting a lobotomy.

I have no idea what getting a lobotomy feels like... is it that dull ache in the head from studying tensor analysis?

Personally I find them all educational. But it's not infotainment. It's like being in a lecture. Best if able to watch something and then go try it next day.

Remember you've been at this stuff forever. Wasn't Noah one of your early clients? I've only been paying attention for 3 years so lots new for me.
 

James

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I have no idea what getting a lobotomy feels like... is it that dull ache in the head from studying tensor analysis?
It feels like you’re getting dumber as you sit there. Laser lobotomy...
It’s just the presentation. Not all lectures are equal. Editing would help, god forbid.
Who’s Noah?
 

oldschoolskier

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@LiquidFeet, this falls under one of my favorite videos for carving turns (Tomba ski SL, and of course Stenmark all different era’s and equipment and as a result technique to match, yet all very similar)

What the video shows how early turns finish yet are still on the old edge. In some cases the turn is finished and the transition initiated prior to passing the gate. In others the line is very wide and high (longer but faster similar to motorsport lines). In skiing the secret is how much between turns you can spend going as straight down as possible while shedding as little speed as possible changing direction. Speed control is only used to stay with the limits of the skier.

Again, don’t over think things.

 

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