Completing your turns

Andy Mink

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@LiquidFeet, this falls under one of my favorite videos for carving turns (Tomba ski SL, and of course Stenmark all different era’s and equipment and as a result technique to match, yet all very similar)

What the video shows how early turns finish yet are still on the old edge. In some cases the turn is finished and the transition initiated prior to passing the gate. In others the line is very wide and high (longer but faster similar to motorsport lines). In skiing the secret is how much between turns you can spend going as straight down as possible while shedding as little speed as possible changing direction. Speed control is only used to stay with the limits of the skier.

Again, don’t over think things.

Are we seeing fore and aft movement in the POV video where you can see the tips then not or is that compression and extension taking the camera up and down and the tips in and out of the frame? Cool either way.
 

oldschoolskier

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Are we seeing fore and aft movement in the POV video where you can see the tips then not or is that compression and extension taking the camera up and down and the tips in and out of the frame? Cool either way.
Think its a bit of both, you also see where he gets a little behind on the gates a scarves it a bit to shave off a little speed and (saves) make the turn.
 

Henry

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Doesn't the turn almost complete itself when the turn is started correctly? Starting the turn has been mentioned above, but I think it deserves more attention. A J turn, by definition, is an incorrect start. So is a Z turn. Emphasize correctly starting the turn, and then any effort to correctly finish the turn is easy.

It sure feels to me like there is a forward pop from the skis at the end of a turn if the feet are allowed to drift forward during the turn. Unload the rear-weighted skis, get the forward pop, pull the skis back under the skier for better tip engagement, and start the next turn. (A friend has had some injury-causing falls from inadvertently doing this. She's a back seat skier, loads the tails in the turn, catches a tail edge, and gets flung into the air like a pole vaulter being launched. Broken arm. She's working hard on becoming a centered skier.)
 

Wilhelmson

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Well if you skied uphill the turns would be complete but maybe a little overcooked. On an open slope a nice round turn with quick transition which I gather is proposed as the ideal carved arc is sometimes easy but not always for less trained skiers. For messy rocky new snow or just kicking around ungroomed terrain medium rare is the way to go.

Maybe rather than teaching the ideal, introduce a variety of turn shapes and styles and get specific about fore aft and pressuring.

Are rr tracks complete turns, or should they be?

Sometimes i see people making perfect symmetrical turns and it looks sort of boring. Other time they are high powered and I'm like wow. They will tell you from the lift if you're doing it right without farting around.
 

JESinstr

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If you believe that a ski turn is the creation of circular travel and if you understand that there are only two paths of travel, straight and circular, then completion of a turn is when circular travel stops and straight line travel reasserts its default role.

So, if you have the skills to execute RR turns, then RR turns are complete turns because the skier intentionally begins and ends the process of creating circular travel, AKA CARVING. And this applies to turns of any radius.

The minute a ski is moving and is on edge, it is creating circular travel by design.

So the question is, can the process of creating circular travel be sustained by the skier to a point that the skier intentionally ends the process. And the answer for those whose instinctive movement patterns is to get the ski braced broadside to the forces of the fall line as their means of controlling speed, is NO.
 

François Pugh

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Yeah, it's not the ski - it's a common misconception: it contributes, but little. It's the energy from the impulse of the turn, virtual bump, body compression, counter, coiling etc. If you time it right, it feels like the same thing...

Wow - that's quite the stroll down that lane... good memory, James!


There was so much controversy at the time, I also made this one:


The thing was not having anything under the middle of the ski, where you normally have the ice/snow etc... but even so, a 3" bend is WC territory!

The other thing that came out of those tests, that I did not capture in the videos was that you can easily overpower the outside ski and eliminate that small pop with mistiming the release - even with a tiny mistiming, it was easy to kill any pop from the ski.
Thanks for making that video.
Clearly, some energy goes into and comes out of a ski that is bent and released with a three inch displacement, but it is not much. When the tail of the ski is still partially on the virtual bump and the ski is unbending a component of the force is accelerating the skier down the slope, but it is a small down-slope force.

Confusing ski rebound with the vaulting effect of the virtual bump is quite common. Combining ski rebound with the vaulting effect of the virtual bump takes skill, especially skillful timing, but is very fun and rewarding if done right, and very punishing if done wrong (been there - done that).

To me a great confusion also arises from the ambiguity of the word "carving". Two very different definitions are in use: 1) ski and snow relative motion only existing tangential to the skis curved edge at all points of contact between the ski and the snow; and, 2) Ski bent into a curve with the edge applying turn forces (some might say creating circular travel), despite relative motion at some points or even all points of contact that are not tangential to the curved edge. The second can exists despite the first being absent - called a brushed carve by some folk.

It is evident by many of the videos posted of "short radius carved" turns that many folks use the second definition. The traditional short radius turn, so essential to good bump skiing, is not even close to anything I would call an arc-2-arc pure carved turn. That's why I use the term "arc-2-arc pure carved turn" when I want to refer to the first definition, and arguments as to when a pure carved turn is pure enough (is 99.9% good enough?) only confound the issue. IMHO, there is a very clear difference between the two and anyone who has achieved the first definition knows it.
 

oldschoolskier

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There are basically 4 ways to get the ski to turn (with some slight variations to them)
  1. Tip, Pure Carve
  2. Pivot under boot (modern), engage edge (seen in bump skiing)
  3. Pivot at tip (modern and old), engage edge (step turns, jump turn)
  4. Combination of 1&2 or 1&3.
Those old enough to remember will understand as we had to learn all to ski well on straight skis, modern allows us to get away with learning the 1 and 4, not fully understanding 2 or 3.

Finally on Carving there are a few ways to change ARC
  1. Angle of engagement (tipping over)
  2. Pressure on tip
  3. Pressure on tail
  4. Combination and sequences of 1 thru 3
A lot of discussion assumes you know these things and how they apply, if you don’t watch the top skiers of your choice of style and you will see the how, where and when of the technique.

Again, I’ve tried to put this in the simplest way possible to ease the understanding, there are other motions and actions involved but for understanding secondary and not necessarily required to be included at least for understanding (and most occur automatically if the basic motions are correct, function and form follow).
 

geepers

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Finally on Carving there are a few ways to change ARC
  1. Angle of engagement (tipping over)
  2. Pressure on tip
  3. Pressure on tail
  4. Combination and sequences of 1 thru 3
Does pressure on the tip tighten or loosen the arc? Same question for pressure on the tail?
 

Pete in Idaho

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First, have to be honest - I usually don't interact on the ski school site. However I have used "finish your turns" a lot teaching and with friends that ask me about their skiing. Second, I think "ski the slow line fast" or vice versa are real head scratchers.

Yes, explain finish your turns to the student or friend and then DO IT. Actually doing it will help the person understand almost immediately.

lets call that friend John. John start down the hill and only turn when I tell you to turn. No cheating now only turn when I say turn. Skiing close enough behind so John can hear start him down the hill. Stopping after he has made different turns but finished them all. Speed control comes naturally when you finish a turn up the hill and faster across and down the hill. Stopping often to explain what you are both doing really helps John understand.

Maybe finish on the appropriate slope with the following challenge. John I want you to ski down this little steeper pitch and make 12 turns, all at the same speed your last turn will be the same speed as your lst turn.

Will John better understand finishing your turn, yes. Simple, but people learn by doing. I still have to think twice about ski the slow line fast.
 

Mike King

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Pressure generally tightens it in either case, however tips give you options, tails set up rebound, danger with tails is ACL injury so you better be sure.
I agree with pressure on tip tightens the radius. I believe pressure on the tail does not -- it generally leads to a decrease in radius.

In training this week we experimented with flat skis at edge change and pressure forward or aft. Forward the skis would turn down the hill. Aft the skis went straight unless you added force in the form of rotary to it. And we see it in our beginners -- if they are aft, they have a tough time getting the skis to turn.

Mike
 

François Pugh

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The thing is, there is only so much force to go around; when you put more pressure on the tails, you put less pressure on the tips. In a pure carved turn the tails can only follow the groove already cut for it. In other turns, it depends on tipping angle, direction of force applied and snow conditions; more pressure on the tails can push the tails out, or it can sink them more solidly into the snow.
 

Mike King

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The thing is, there is only so much force to go around; when you put more pressure on the tails, you put less pressure on the tips. In a pure carved turn the tails can only follow the groove already cut for it. In other turns, it depends on tipping angle, direction of force applied and snow conditions; more pressure on the tails can push the tails out, or it can sink them more solidly into the snow.
Sure, and when the pressure is on the tail, the tip is less engaged -- depending on how far aft, there will be a length of the front of the ski that is flat and not in contact with the snow. See 2:25:

 

Noodler

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Sure, and when the pressure is on the tail, the tip is less engaged -- depending on how far aft, there will be a length of the front of the ski that is flat and not in contact with the snow. See 2:25:

Thanks for posting this video. I had been searching for the original source of this ever since I saw the excerpt that TG included in his instruction regarding tipping angle versus pressuring a ski.
 
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