Confusion: skin skis glide behavior?

[crosscountry]

I went to a demo day and tested a bunch of skin skis. It was a little bit disappointing. I’m a little put off by their glide behavior.

Or, maybe I should say I’m confused by the difference in glide characteristic of the skin skis vs the old fish scale waxless skis.

First, my expectation. I thought the whole idea of kicker skin is, the hairs on the skins are directional so it should glide in one direction and grip on the other. As such, I was hopeful that these skis glide better than the good old fish scale kick patterns. With that expectation, I thought it would be less critical in getting a perfect flex, as long as I can flex it to get a good grip on the kick phase?

Instead, some of the skis I tried were super sensitive to my weight. As soon as I put my full weight on the kick ski, the kick zone touches the snow and stopped me dead, almost toss me “over the handle bar”! Not just one, but several skis I tested.

It’s possible some of the skis I tried maybe a little on the soft side. But I’m not sure about that. On paper, the test skis I was given should be right for my weight

So my questions are basically the following.

1. Why wouldn’t the ski glide (a little) even when the skins contact the snow? (I’ve had fish scale skis. When the skis are weighted, the glide slows down significantly, but it would continue to glide slowly to a stop, not a sudden full stop)
2. I found that “death grip” (as in stop me dead in my track) when the ski is weighted is difficult to deal with. (Granted, my technique is probably far from perfect. But I was hoping the skin skis would be more forgiving rather than less forgiving on imperfect technique)
3. I’m not able to get any glide at all when herringbone uphill as I was able to do on both waxable and waxless (fishscale) skis. (OK, I know a pure harringbone doesn’t involves glide. But as a recreational skier, I’ve been taught to push for some glide, aka skate uphill when possible)
4. Last but not least, I had trouble finding skis with decent balance on kick vs glide. Though that’s largely due to the “stop me dead” behavior on the glide to kick transition. I ended up trying out progressively stiffer skis to avoid the skin zone "catching". But at some point, the effort to get a good kick became too much.

But perhaps I’m not understanding how the skin skis work? Do I need to modify my technique to use these skis?

Or, am I having the wrong expectation? Is that characteristic to be expected?

Or, am I looking at the wrong skis? Is so, what should I be looking for?

 

[slow-line-fast]

It’s sensitive to your weight and stride. If ski flex is too soft, you will get that inconsistent and sometimes sudden grabby effect. So you were on the wrong skin skis (not that skin skis are wrong for you or your technique). Bindings with a fore-aft adjustment let you fine tune, but you want to start with the right flex for you.

With fishscales you can have too soft a flex and not notice it too much, as they are still ski hase rather than fiber, so the glide difference isn’t so much.

 

[crosscountry]

Yes, when I asked for and was given some "stiffer" skis, that "catchy" feeling became less pronounce.

But like I said, I'm having difficulty finding a good balance of ski flex that doesn't "catch" during an imperfect transition, but without requiring too much of an effort to get some good kick.

[EDIT]
Another thing, I "inflated" my weight to account for the gear I would typically be carrying on a day trip: water, energy bar, or even extra gloves. But when I was testing, I had none of that. Yet, the skis were still "catch" rather frequently. By the time I found a ski that doesn't constantly catch, my correct weight had disappeared below the chart!

In other words, I ended up skiing skis that are meant (at least "labeled") for someone 15-20lb heavier than me.

 

[cantunamunch]

^ How was the snow consistency?

 

[crosscountry]

^ How was the snow consistency?

New snow (fallen 24 hrs ago).

Groomed (and had been skied on by quite a lot of skiers. MLK weekend).

I would add that's the kind of condition I will most likely want to use the skis for. New snow, groomed, maybe a bit on the soft side. Better classic than skate kind of day.

 

[Tom K.]

Everything @slow-line-fast said. Some of my other observations on skin skis:

1. They are quiet. Beyond that, IMO, they offer no real performance advantage over my venerable RCS Crown skis.

2. They are far trickier than crown skis when skidding a turn. They can be grabby when all your weight is on one ski and you're trying to get it to slide laterally on the snow -- you know, turn! Not what the "skins" are designed for. They like going straight forward, and grabbing backwards.

3. They are SUPER sensitive to your weight. The only way to get a truly perfect ski is to stand on a flex board with a pro evaluating things for you.

Hope that helps. All of us classic xc skiers are on a lifelong quest for a ski that glides without any drag, but kicks perfectly every time!

Note: @Slim and @Primoz have this stuff down cold. Perhaps they will chime in.

 

[Slim]

I am not an expert on skin skis by any means.

@crosscountry The number one thing I am missing is whether you tried the different fore aft positions of the bindings? Just like you tune the wax type, thickness and length to the snow, you tune skins by moving your bindings.

I wonder if the skins where dirty? Just like alpine demo skis sometimes have bad tunes, skins might be dirty.
You don’t say, but it sounded like the snow was well below freezing? In that case I wouldn’t expect any weird stop and grab.
Even when weighted, skins will still glide, as evidenced by AT skis (with very soft flex compared to an XC ski).

My skin skis have great kick (in most conditions) and glide is about 90% of my wax skis, when I get the wax right.

So slower for sure, but that is not what you were describing.

And no, I use the same technique, and so does my kid.

 

[crosscountry]

My skin skis have great kick (in most conditions) and glide is about 85% of my wax skis, when I get the wax right.

So slower for sure, but that is not what you were describing,

Exactly! That was what I expect when I went in for the demo. But that's not what how many of the skis were behaving. Hence my confusion.

I can't imagine more than half of the skins were dirty! Especially I was one of the few early birds showing up at the demo. And the first couple pair of ski I tested was quite grabby!

Moving the binding back and forth does help or hurt. But as others pointed out, that's not what they're there for. There're there to handle different snow condition and skier conditioning. So I left all the test bindings on neutral. Basically, I was testing the middle of the performance range.

 

[crosscountry]

They are SUPER sensitive to your weight.

That's really NOT what I'm looking for!

What happens if I need to carry a full Camelpak of water?

I'm not looking for a "perfect" ski. Moreover, what's "perfect" on test day may not be quite so perfect on another day. Snow may be different. I maybe more or less tired. I was expecting skis with a relatively good performance range to handle that sort of variation.

Is that the little unspoken secret, that skin skis generally have more limited performance envelop?

 

[Tom K.]

That's really NOT what I'm looking for!

What happens if I need to carry a full Camelpak of water?

I'm not looking for a "perfect" ski. Moreover, what's "perfect" on test day may not be quite so perfect on another day. Snow may be different. I maybe more or less tired. I was expecting skis with a relatively good performance range to handle that sort of variation.

Is that the little unspoken secret, that skin skis generally have more limited performance envelop?

Not sure about the envelope, but it seems like a narrow range to me. My OG Atomic skin skis have removable skins, and came with two sets: one with a little grip and one with a lot.

In the end, any xc ski has a relatively narrow performance window w/r/t weight because the pocket has to nicely contact the snow when you stand on it with one leg, but not when evenly balanced on two. I think partly because of this, several of my masters-racing friends have AT LEAST seven pair of classic skis and 3 for skating. Crazy, right?

He says as he averts his eyes from his own personal quiver of alpine skis.....

The best range, by far, is a waxable ski, because you can wax a lot when you're lazy and a little when you turn it up!

 

[Tony S]

following

 

[crosscountry]

The best range, by far, is a waxable ski, because you can wax a lot when you're lazy and a little when you turn it up!

Tell me about it! The ultimate versatility!

But, waxing when it's right around freezing is a bear. And I unfortunately live in a region where that's the typical condition!

They are far trickier than crown skis when skidding a turn. They can be grabby when all your weight is on one ski and you're trying to get it to slide laterally on the snow

I almost forgot about that part! I was scared silly when I try to do a step turn on the bottom of a descend! It wasn't a steep descend at all. But I thought I was going to fly into a tree superman style when the ski stopped dead!

they offer no real performance advantage over my venerable RCS Crown skis.

That's a... interesting statement!

 

[twa2w]

Skin skis will reward good technique and punish bad technique. Skin skis do have a bit of a break-in period, then that grabby feeling should abate if the ski is right-sized for you by weight and length.
A good skin ski should perform at about 95% of a well-waxed waxable ski, and significantly better than waxless skis.
You should have good glide if sized right. Skins do work well in most conditions.
When new and stored incorrectly skins can get the nap out of line and this can sometimes cause the issue you describe. There is a treatment you can get to fix this.

 

[Tom K.]

But, waxing when it's right around freezing is a bear. And I unfortunately live in a region where that's the typical condition!

So true. After a young life in northern MN, where I needed about 3 kick waxes, I found this PNW trait very irritating. Pretty much gave up on waxing there.

That's a... interesting statement!

My old RCS Crown skis are rockets. But I despise the noise, and they are flexed for a younger man that kicks harder, and wants to go "full tilt boogey" all the time.

FWIW I think @twa2w makes some good points. It sounds like he knows a lot more about skin skis than I do.

 

[cantunamunch]

So...have any of you messed about and put Glob Stopper wax on your skins?

 

[crosscountry]

When new and stored incorrectly skins can get the nap out of line and this can sometimes cause the issue you describe. There is a treatment you can get to fix this.

I wouldn't think the demo skis all have that problem?

In any case, what's the treatment?

I've also heard a rep mentioned to put down liquid glide wax right over the skin (instead of avoiding it). Any validity on that?

 

[Slim]

I wouldn't think the demo skis all have that problem?

In any case, what's the treatment?

I've also heard a rep mentioned to put down liquid glide wax right over the skin (instead of avoiding it). Any validity on that?

For AT skiing in spring, it Is often recommended to lightly hot wax (glide wax) skins, so the liquid wax on skins seems totally ok to me.

 

[cantunamunch]

For AT skiing in spring, it Is often recommended to lightly hot wax (glide wax) skins, so the liquid wax on skins seems totally ok to me.

This is why I'm asking - has anyone used AT skin wax on XC skin skis yet.

 

[Tom K.]

This is why I'm asking - has anyone used AT skin wax on XC skin skis yet.

I tried this several years ago, and it was OK. Kind of thicker than ideal for truly good glide IMO.

I now spray a light coating of Toko aerosol alpine wax on them, and would say it works great, and seems to last the 2 or so hours I typically xc ski.

 

[Primoz]

First, I have to say I have very very little experience with skins on xc skis. I have pair of Fischer Speedmax twin skin skis, which see basically no use. It would be a bit embarassing for me to not get wax right regardless of conditions , so I prefer "proper" skis, unless I'm super lazy and conditions are super bad. So comparing these Speedmax twin skin vs. normal Speedmax with wax, yes, skins are noticeably slower, and in 99.99% cases have noticeably better kick (I still wax like for races, so kick is never optimal, as glide is more important). But there's difference between skis and skins. Just Fischer's Twin Skin line (which is more race oriented) has 6 or 7 models from more recreational oriented Twinskin Performance to sort of race ready Twinskin Speedmax (it's real proper Speedmax race ski just with skins). And grip, glide and construction differs. Low(er) end has mohair/syntetic mix skins (more kick, less glide), while top models have 100% mohair (less kick more glide). Also ski construction is different, which means also glide performance is different. So there can be plenty of reason for "no glide" or "almost toss me over the handle bar”. One is of course way too soft skis. Another is, that skis were on lower end, where glide is never priority, but good kick is. This means softer skis, with smaller "wax pocket" (I guess it should be called skin pocket in this case ), which flattens easier to offer better kick. Transfering all weight on one ski, would almost certainly guarantee no glide with such conditions.
If you go even lower on the range or even going into more BC skis and skings, this shows even more, so without knowing what exactly you tried, and how ski stiffness was compared to your weight it's hard to say. But with more race oriented skis, skin skis still glide pretty good and you don't experience any issues like that, if skis are right stiffnes.
As for binding adjustment... please just don't complicate. Moving binding less then 2cm (in max positions) from or back surely does change ski behaviour. Problem is, there's very little chance anyone here will notice this difference. If you do it yourself, you will of course notice huge difference, but only because you imagine so. If someone else would set bindings to different position without you knowing, I would dare to bet, noone here would notice difference
And for skin "maintenance". I don't know how it would be with touring skin spray. Probably it would work, as it's pretty much same material. But I have none (for touring I just use BP88 and rub it on skin), so for these skins, I got Swix skin stuff (cleaner and boost). I use Swix Skin Boost before every training, and cleaner once in a while (with my skin skis use it's more or less once a year ).