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Confusion: skin skis glide behavior?

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crosscountry

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But at 165cm , a 194 ski is really long.
Actually, my older skis were all in the upper 180. I got used to skiing really long skis. :)

And I took out a 194 only because the shorter version were out being demo'ed by someone else. I never got a chance to try the right length. That said, the 194 didn't present any noticeable difficulties. Snowplow and herringbone on steep grade would probably be where problem could potentially be noticed. But I only tried it on blues (intermediate). Wasn't a problem.

According to Salomon chart you posted, I would be in the 188 length anyway. That's in the same territory as what I've been using. 194 being only 6cm longer, I really didn't notice much issue in handling.

I would prefer to have a less demanding ski so I don't have to be always "on my game". I'm into my 6th decade, my fitness can only decline from here. :( So initially, I gave my real weight and asked for something for a fit but not into racing. Unfortunately, that's when I experienced all the grabby catchy behavior. It wasn't until I asked for the 'racy' skis that I start to get "normal" behavior. I mean, what I expect behavior.

Next round of demo, I'll try to aim for a stiffer ski in the top end of the recreational group to start with and see how that goes. At the lower end of the "fitness" (recreational) skis, it is still longer=stiffer. No choice of length for the same weight.
 
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crosscountry

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Duh!

Found the root cause of the skin skis being so "catchy". Rather, causes. Two of them!

One was I gave my naked body weight to start my test. That's easily 5lbs below my "out for a short spin" weight, by just adding the boots and poles. In reality, I often carry water and a bar, a spare layer or even a down vest to keep warm while lunching at some scenic view point. Still, that kind of weight variation can be taken care of with the movable binding.

The real culprit of the skis feeling "catchy" on my first demo was because I was using a pair of poles too long! At that demo, I didn't think much about poles. So I simply asked the demo gang for a pair. Thinking back, they said something about not having the right length and gave me a pair that's 5cm longer than usual for my height. I thought, no big deal...

How did I find out the relation between too long poles and catchy skin skis? Yesterday, I was at another demo again. You all know I'm also hunting for another pair of better fitting boots. So that's where I began. With the new combi boot I was testing, I grabbed my own skate skis and poles (scientific testing principle, never change more than one parameter in each test). Once I felt the boots works ok, I wanted to use them for testing classic skin skis. So, I put my skate skis back in the car and hit the demo tent for a pair of skin skis, this time with the corrected "ski weight" instead of naked body weight. The mid-range skis I wanted to test was being demo'ed by someone else. So they gave me a pair of racing skis to play with in the meantime. Surprisingly, it was slightly "catchy", though it was easily fixed by moving the binding a notch.

I took it out for a longer ski. That's when I suddenly realized I was still using my skating poles which is a good deal longer than ideal!

Returning to the car for the right sized poles, I also dial back the binding to neutral to give it a fair test. No catching anymore! Pretty obviously, the "catchiness" was related to the too long pole! I think with the longer pole, I was likely "bouncing" slightly each step, landing harder on the skis than what I normally would. That pretty much invalidated much of my previous demo. Wasted everybody's time.

A big red face moment. :doh:
 
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Rod9301

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I went to a demo day and tested a bunch of skin skis. It was a little bit disappointing. I’m a little put off by their glide behavior.

Or, maybe I should say I’m confused by the difference in glide characteristic of the skin skis vs the old fish scale waxless skis.

First, my expectation. I thought the whole idea of kicker skin is, the hairs on the skins are directional so it should glide in one direction and grip on the other. As such, I was hopeful that these skis glide better than the good old fish scale kick patterns. With that expectation, I thought it would be less critical in getting a perfect flex, as long as I can flex it to get a good grip on the kick phase?

Instead, some of the skis I tried were super sensitive to my weight. As soon as I put my full weight on the kick ski, the kick zone touches the snow and stopped me dead, almost toss me “over the handle bar”! Not just one, but several skis I tested.

It’s possible some of the skis I tried maybe a little on the soft side. But I’m not sure about that. On paper, the test skis I was given should be right for my weight

So my questions are basically the following.
  1. Why wouldn’t the ski glide (a little) even when the skins contact the snow? (I’ve had fish scale skis. When the skis are weighted, the glide slows down significantly, but it would continue to glide slowly to a stop, not a sudden full stop)
  2. I found that “death grip” (as in stop me dead in my track) when the ski is weighted is difficult to deal with. (Granted, my technique is probably far from perfect. But I was hoping the skin skis would be more forgiving rather than less forgiving on imperfect technique)
  3. I’m not able to get any glide at all when herringbone uphill as I was able to do on both waxable and waxless (fishscale) skis. (OK, I know a pure harringbone doesn’t involves glide. But as a recreational skier, I’ve been taught to push for some glide, aka skate uphill when possible)
  4. Last but not least, I had trouble finding skis with decent balance on kick vs glide. Though that’s largely due to the “stop me dead” behavior on the glide to kick transition. I ended up trying out progressively stiffer skis to avoid the skin zone "catching". But at some point, the effort to get a good kick became too much.
But perhaps I’m not understanding how the skin skis work? Do I need to modify my technique to use these skis?

Or, am I having the wrong expectation? Is that characteristic to be expected?

Or, am I looking at the wrong skis? Is so, what should I be looking for?
What are skin skis?
 

Wilhelmson

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I got lost around trying to skate ski with skins. I get the kick part.
 

Yo Momma

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No. 1 XC ski rule: No matter the ski length, flex, wax or your conditioning... you WILL be lapped by many!.... unless maybe you're @Primoz level!!! :beercheer: That's just the rule in XC!

It only gets slightly embarrassing when you notice as they whizz past you, they're sportin' leather 3 pins and faded wooden skis that should be hangin' as antiques on the barn you just passed!
 
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Wilhelmson

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No. 1 XC ski rule: No matter the ski length, flex, wax or your conditioning... you WILL be lapped by many!.... unless maybe you're @Primoz level!!! :beercheer: That's just the rule in XC!

It only gets slightly embarrassing when you notice as they whizz past you, they're sportin' leather 3 pins and faded wooden skis that should be hangin' as antiques on the barn you just passed!
Oh yeah any racer will leave you in the dust. Dudes will skate in crud and rocks lol not my game. If I didn’t break my woodies dropping cliffs I would still be on the blue swix.
 

Yo Momma

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The same rule applies to swimming. Only there's no equipment to confuse the picture!
Yuup. Wifey and I train and do survival swimming for kiteboarding.... been stranded for 4+ hrs out when the wind unexpectedly just dies on you... :dig: Slow efficient and steady... then some 80 yr old effortlessly blows past you w/ ease and grace while doing serious mileage!! LMAO Yup... my Poser Badge is nicely polished and remains at the ready!
 
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Equipment discussion are mostly for newbies who need to buy their first entry level gear, or upgrade to a more sustainable mid-level setup.

Of the latter, the talk gets most intense when someone had skied/bike for a few years. They have some idea of what they need and try to find setup as close to fitting that need. I'm not ashamed to admit I'm in that last camp.

Elite level racers have their own source to help find the best gear that would shave seconds. They also accept the fact they will have a large quiver, each for a specific condition. So, by the time they retire, they would have a large if not most up-to-date leftover quiver to choose from, which may seem rather quaint 20 years down the line.
 

Primoz

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Those days are gone. With top guys (and their 100+ pairs) they go back to company, and they might be left with 4 or 5 pairs, if they are in good relations with companies race department. For everyone else, they never had 100 pairs and money contract, which means as soon as their "schoolarship" money from ski federation or club ends, they sell majority of skis to have at least some money to start normal life.
I admit, I still have some 5 or 6 pairs from my race days (which ended loooong time ago), but I never ski them. Things change, equipment evolves and you really don't want to ski 20 years old skis, even if they were once best and fastest skis on world. Today's ski are so much better, that's it's simply not worth it. And unless you are racing, which noone does if they quit racing, you are perfectly fine with some 5 or 6 pairs. I'm probably more picky about xc skis then 99% of (current and ex) racers, and I'm perfectly fine with 5 pairs (3 classic and 2 skating) I have.
 
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Things change, equipment evolves and you really don't want to ski 20 years old skis, even if they were once best and fastest skis on world.
That's probably because you continue to update your quiver.

I was once given (for free) a pair of skis that were once top of the line. Like you, the guy who had it obviously have better, more up-to-date skis so would never ski those old skis. But what was outdated and less than great skis was way faster than the entry level skis I had then.
 

Primoz

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@crosscountry pure gliding speed is one thing, but there's more to good ski then just this. Ski construction and ski profiles change through the years and comparing 20 years old ski and today's ski it's like night and day. Current skis are so much more stable (this shows especially on skating skis), so on the end this also means faster ski even if on glide test it would be slightly slower.
But yes, comparing top race skis with entry level skis doesn't really go. Even 20 years old ones, are still better and faster then brand new entry level one :)
 

slow-line-fast

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@crosscountry pure gliding speed is one thing, but there's more to good ski then just this. Ski construction and ski profiles change through the years and comparing 20 years old ski and today's ski it's like night and day. Current skis are so much more stable (this shows especially on skating skis), so on the end this also means faster ski even if on glide test it would be slightly slower.
Interesting to hear this from the nordic world, as it is also my experience with alpine skis. As for touring skis, the improvement must be infinite in comparison, with a marked acceleration in the last 5 years.
 

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