Continuing to ski hard while aging gracefully??

[HardDaysNight]

As one might expect, the value of stretching (and flexibility training in general) has been extensively investigated in recent years. The results consistently show that stretching routines neither improve performance nor prevent injuries. They do, however, feel good.

 

[chris_the_wrench]

I recall thinking, I had just walked from the far end of the parking lot with my gear and felt warmed up, he must be thinking that you take a warm up run or two before doing anything real.

Im generally more warmed up after a similar walk than I am after a couple laps of riding cold chairs..

 

[geepers]

As one might expect, the value of stretching (and flexibility training in general) has been extensively investigated in recent years. The results consistently show that stretching routines neither improve performance nor prevent injuries. They do, however, feel good.

That's interesting.

Intuitively (and from personal experience) I'm surprised and wondering if the investigations were done on, say, athletes with an already active lifestyle? It's hard to reconcile this with a sedentary lifestyle leading to limited RoM with improved ability to perform anything with an athletic component and very likely an increased risk of strain injury when that RoM gets pushed.

I know that not stretching certain muscles/regions for a periods of time (days, weeks) leads to increased soreness and increased risk that a sudden load or movement could overstrain something. Becomes a bigger issue with age and previous injuries.

 

[Mike King]

That's interesting.

Intuitively (and from personal experience) I'm surprised and wondering if the investigations were done on, say, athletes with an already active lifestyle? It's hard to reconcile this with a sedentary lifestyle leading to limited RoM with improved ability to perform anything with an athletic component and very likely an increased risk of strain injury when that RoM gets pushed.

I know that not stretching certain muscles/regions for a periods of time (days, weeks) leads to increased soreness and increased risk that a sudden load or movement could overstrain something. Becomes a bigger issue with age and previous injuries.

some of the studies have found a fair amount of injury from the stretching rather than the activity.

there’s a difference between activity to facilitate mobility as opposed to stretching…

 

[David Chaus]

some of the studies have found a fair amount of injury from the stretching rather than the activity.

there’s a difference between activity to facilitate mobility as opposed to stretching…

There's a difference stretching to loosen up, and stupid stretching to prove how much you can stretch. Overdoing it can lead to injury for sure.

 

[geepers]

some of the studies have found a fair amount of injury from the stretching rather than the activity.

there’s a difference between activity to facilitate mobility as opposed to stretching…

Pretty sure it's easy to do damage by both stretching unwisely and over-working. Equally convinced it's even easier to do damage by not doing something for some years and then fooling ourselves that we're 25 y/o again. (Or 16 y/o if still only 25...)

(If we wish to take no chances of incurring a physical injury then could simply remain inactive. That would work. For a while.)

Have long been a subscriber to good pain / bad pain. Good pain is when it feels like something is being restored to its former glory (perhaps in stages) and bad pain is when it feels like damage is being done. This gets complicated as the historic injury list grows and the decades roll by....

So now an advocate of also managing pain over a slightly longer cycle - at least 24 hours. Just because we can do an activity (stretching or working) pain free at the time doesn't mean that we won't experience cumulative effects. Understand it's related to the time the body may take to repair micro-damage to muscles/ligaments/etc that occur in the activities. Working atm (but no doubt some-one will point out there's research disproving this)...

Anyway, not medical, don't know. Only body I get to do any 'experiments' on is my own and the goal is to keep at least some of the parts in vague working order as long as possible. If the only thing stretching is good for is feeling better than that's a win.

 

[Marker]

Actually, weight training damages your muscles and the increased strength comes with healing, which is why you get sore and need rest. The key is to avoid other soft tissue damage that takes much longer to heal.

As for feeling good, stretching reduces my soreness from skiing, weight training and other physical activity, which to me is a worthwhile benefit. If I don't stretch after a day of skiing, I feel like sh*t the next day, but that may be due to being a habitual stretcher.

 

[Mike King]

The Case Against Stretching

Scientists are increasingly skeptical of the benefits of flexibility, but the fitness world doesn’t want to hear it

www.outsideonline.com

 

[peterm]

Weirdly, there is some evidence to suggest that stretching can help lower high blood pressure (alternative link).

 

[Marker]

Sooo, a simple Google search easily finds articles from Harvard Medical and the Mayo Clinic touting the benefits of stretching, but I'm supposed to take word of Outside magazine instead?

 

[geepers]

The Case Against Stretching

Scientists are increasingly skeptical of the benefits of flexibility, but the fitness world doesn’t want to hear it

www.outsideonline.com

Sooo, a simple Google search easily finds articles from Harvard Medical and the Mayo Clinic touting the benefits of stretching, but I'm supposed to take word of Outside magazine instead?

Was pondering this stretching thing - why does my own experience run counter to the no-benefit-maybe-even-counterproductive pov?

Maybe it's when we stretch and how regularly.

And like many scientific/technical fields quickly get lost in a maze of detail. Like what was being done and what was being measured. And just as quickly run into paywall block. So it seems the best that can be had is articles and occasional summaries of papers. Unless wanting to undertake a medical or sports science degree...

There's a few articles that point to a 2004 paper by Shrier who did a review of the literature and found:

An acute bout of stretching does not improve force or jump height, and the results for running speed are contradictory. Regular stretching improves force, jump height, and speed, although there is no evidence that it improves running economy.​

Or as some-one pointed out a typical study:

had it’s participants do a metric shit-ton of stretching (like 10-15 minutes worth, give or take? maybe more?), which of course isn’t ideal for performance. There’s a stark different between that and having an athlete engage in a few quick stretches.​

Basically, it’s likely best not to take a yoga class right before a timed 60.​

Then again 2004 is nearly last century...

So something from 2012 and updated 2021 referencing Shrier again...

“Stretching immediately before exercise is deemed ineffective in preventing injuries and also reduces force and power by about 2% to 5%. Regular stretching over weeks yields opposite effects, increasing force and power by about 2% to 5% while improving running speed by about 0.06 second during a 50-yard dash.“​

​

Or as author says:​

In other words: Doing a specific type of stretching, in a specific way, immediately before another specific activity, can have a negative effect on athletic performance.​

NOT that “all stretching has no value.”​

And this...​

“This study suggests that chronic static stretching exercises by themselves can improve specific exercise performances. It is possible that persons who are unable to participate in traditional strength training activities may be able to experience gains through stretching, which would allow them to transition into a more traditional exercise regimen.”​

​

This is getting far too TL;DR. Hopefully some-one with proper credentials can help sort it out.

Meantime I'm in the group "feels better, works better" when I do regular stretching at the end of the ski day after thoroughly warming up in the hot tub / shower. It's anecdotal, not rigorous. Make only feeble attempts to stretch prior to skiing.
Also probably more in the "has issues with RoM" and need to keep working on it in order to do traditional exercises / strength training in the off-season.


There's another interesting point from a poke around in this space.

Results: High quality and consistent data demonstrated there is no apparent relationship between recovery of muscle function and ratings of muscle soreness and surrogate markers of muscle damage when protein supplements are consumed prior to, during or after a bout of endurance or resistance exercise. There also appears to be insufficient experimental data demonstrating ingestion of a protein supplement following a bout of exercise attenuates muscle soreness and/or lowers markers of muscle damage.​

Looking forward to hearing from the protein shake makers.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@geepers, are you able to get on snow right now?

 

[François Pugh]

One thing you have to consider is that if you have great flexibility due to lots of stretching over a long period of time, it is much easier to get your bones into a more vulnerable position and thus make it easier to damage your joints.

 

[Uncle-A]

All of the above especially keep your weight down. During COVID I put on ten extra pounds, it is gone now but the difference is striking and that's only ten pounds. So above all the other recommendations keep the weight down.

 

[dan ross]

How about reversing the title?

Continuing to ski gracefully while aging hard.

FWIW I was berating myself for getting tired skiing cut up heavy PNW crud. Then I remembered I’m 58. I shouldn’t really expect myself to ski as hard (and stupidly and inefficiently) as I did when I was younger.

This brings up an important point: Don’t compete with your younger self. This doesn’t mean give up, it just means that as we age we have to adapt and adjust. I spent part of my late twenties and early thirties, disappointed that I didn’t-couldn’t ski as well as I did from 17-25 when I skied everyday and was in the best shape of my life. Once I got over that -the upside to maturity- I had fun again and was fine being 80% of the skier I once was. At this point, almost 60, ive got one artificial hip and am scheduled for the other one. I wore them out. This has been instructive in that I don’t take my relatively good fitness for granted and because I’ve learned from doctors that physical aging isn’t usually a long gradual decline -it tends to happen via incidents be they through injuries, inactivity or arthritis in my case. I’ve got some work to do to get to where I was 3 years ago but i know what the upside is , many more years, god willing, of having fun on skis. That’s the point:,fun.

 

[geepers]

@geepers, are you able to get on snow right now?

Unfortunately we (Sydney) are in lockdown. Delta variant. No skiing any time soon .

One thing you have to consider is that if you have great flexibility due to lots of stretching over a long period of time, it is much easier to get your bones into a more vulnerable position and thus make it easier to damage your joints.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Unfortunately we (Sydney) are in lockdown. Delta variant. No skiing any time soon .

Sorry to hear that.

 

[Paul Lutes]

One thing you have to consider is that if you have great flexibility due to lots of stretching over a long period of time, it is much easier to get your bones into a more vulnerable position and thus make it easier to damage your joints.

???? That sounds a lot like saying if you get good a speed events you're just increasing your risk of serious injury because stopping at speed does more damage. Stretching should be a part of a greater package including strength, reflex conditioning, cardio, etc., all of which should allow one to avoid relying only on stretching. I find it hard to imagine getting into compromising positions just because you're more flexible - seems more like the foolishness of not having a comprehensive plan.

 

[Crank]

???? That sounds a lot like saying if you get good a speed events you're just increasing your risk of serious injury because stopping at speed does more damage. Stretching should be a part of a greater package including strength, reflex conditioning, cardio, etc., all of which should allow one to avoid relying only on stretching. I find it hard to imagine getting into compromising positions just because you're more flexible - seems more like the foolishness of not having a comprehensive plan.

Paul speaks my truth.

Herniated disk L5 when I was 29 have been stretching and doing all the above since. Been good for 35 years now. IT band issues last few years pretty much ok now with added stretches. ymmv

I will add that I read a study regarding disc surgery way back when that said at 4 years post op. Those who had surgery to correct a herniated disk were much more likely to have recurring symptoms than those who treated it with PT and exercise. Tells me that it's a lifestyle thing. PT for my disk was mostly stretching and then core work. Along with swimming which I hated but I did. Now I bike and hike along with stretching, core work and weights an dour trusty old Nordic Track.

I still ski fairly hard and aggressively - just not as hard and aggressively and not all day.

 

[Tony S]

As one might expect, the value of stretching (and flexibility training in general) has been extensively investigated in recent years. The results consistently show that stretching routines neither improve performance nor prevent injuries. They do, however, feel good.

Don't you sometimes observe skiers whose technical progression is impeded by range-of-motion issues? (I do.) If so, don't you suppose that some of this, at least, could be ameliorated by ongoing stretching work?