Crowds or no...skier visits

[tch]

I got interested today in a theme that seems to be popping up in a lot of threads about the "Ikon/Epic" effect. Lots o' complaining about "how crowded" slopes are.
So I found this sheet on the National Ski Area Association website. http://www.nsaa.org/media/303945/visits.pdf

What it reports is, yes, last year in particular showed a big uptick in skier visits, with 2018-19 ranking #4 in visits since 1978-79. But equally interesting was the ranking of the last seven years previous: 24, 14, 25, 22, 12,10, 32. What this suggests to me is that our perception of how crowded things are is accurate...but also heavily influenced by our recent memories of years with far fewer visits. So I guess we have a right to complain, but we are also doing so in an era of generally declining skier visits. As has been raised in the 2019-2020 Northeast thread, do we see the glass as half-empty or half-full?

 

[Sibhusky]

We keep setting new records. So I know it is, in fact, really, truly more crowded.

"Last winter, Whitefish capped off its 71st season this spring with another record for total skier visits at 384,800. That set a new record for the third consecutive year with an increase of 3,000 total skier visits over the previous year’s high."

16-17 was 346,000.

 

[Bad Bob]

I don't have the figures (and am too lazy to look them up), but wonder how those areas not aligned with Ikon or Epic have fared these past couple of years. Are their crowds getting larger at them, or are they getting whiffed by the big guys? Glad to see the numbers up it is healthy for our sport.

Wonder how those involved in the Indy Pass are doing?

 

[Slim]

mostly I hear that the ski industry is dying, and that there are not many new skiers coming into the sport, Whitefish must be doing something right!

 

[Slim]

Looking at that sheet, the most interesting thing is that in 20 years, there is only a 20% growth total, and almost all of it is in the Rocky Mtn west

 

[GregK]

Have noticed all the Ikon/Epic pass crowd complaining as well but find it seems to be more crowded lately at all resorts regardless if they are Ikon/Epic or not. In my home resorts in Ontario, Canada the smaller and “always less busy” family run Mt St Louis Moonstone resort has been insanely crowded this holiday season.

The Aspen owned/Ikon pass Blue Mountain probably has seen a large decrease in the amount of weekend membership pass use as they no longer have a “full membership” anymore for weekday/weekend plus nights pass. It’s either the 5 by 7 pass(weekday days plus any night) that sells for around $240 CAN in the Springtime or you have to go up to the $850 US Ikon Pass to get weekends now that Aspen took over. Was a lot of complaints due to this when this happened 2 years ago and many just have the cheaper pass and never ski weekends now. And yet they are still packed on the weekends. I have an Ikon Pass but doubt I’ll ski there many weekends as it’s always been too busy.

 

[Green08]

Whitefish has been on a tear with growing visits and media coverage.

Issues in SLC regarding traffic up the canyons are not new to Ikon or Epic.

Geoff Hathaway recently stated in a podcast that Magic Mountain VT is seeing growth, and largely from folks shifting away from seemingly overcrowded Ikon/Epic resorts.

Several lost ski areas have been reclaimed in the past decade or so, and a few other projects in the works.

New ski resorts are still opening and being planned.

While total numbers do not seem to be breaking into new consistent records all around, overcrowding at key mega resorts seems to be a yearly issue for infrastructure.

The share of the skier market occupied by the mega resorts for visits, dollars, and media coverage, also frowns out most smaller operations.

Media here in CO really reports little about places like Monarch, Cooper, Sunlight, Purgatory, Powderhorn. And the Burlington outlets in VT rarely spoke about MRG, Magic, Suicide Six, Middlebiry, Bromley, and the same in NH with even more smaller areas. Hard to hear about conditions from places you just don’t hear anything about.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

This is in part why I'm so loyal to Magic and Bromley and similar places. Geoff at Magic and all of management (Kerry and Bill) work very hard at keeping magic special and we love them for it. 'not epic, not ikon, just magic'

We have Snow, Okemo and Stratton in our backyard as well but I just am not motivated to go there.

I spend springtime at Killington but this is really because it's just plain fun with our crew and the vibe that exists in spring. I honestly love my smaller areas. I love the revival of the lost ski areas, the indy pass and this kumbaya attide that's coming out of this.

 

[SSSdave]

Rather obvious there are multiple factors involved in numbers of seasonal visits and those factors vary between regions. In all regions, the amount and quality of snow is significant. However it is much more so in the two Pacific sectors versus the Rocky Mtn sector. All the big years in the PSW were heavy snow years. Most of the visitors in our PSW region are from local regional urban areas that don't plan ahead for destination style vacations and rather ski/board through a season more frequently mostly on weekends especially when snow conditions are favorable.

Conversely those in the Rockies draw higher percentages of visitors from across the Midwest and eastern states as well as foreigners most of which are destination vacationers that ski/board less numbers of trips planned well in advance due to travel and lodging logistics. Thus they have to make do with whatever snow conditions later occur. Visits in the Pacific Southwest, Northeast, Midwest, and Pacific Northwest have all remained relatively flat. So one really cannot discuss these matters on a national basis, just regionally.

Add to that the Ikon/Epic effects and I'll speculate that the Rockies and Northeast are more affected than the Pacific region because much of the increase is a combination of more Colorado based visitors plus destination visitors. And why there are more may due to the decrease of single resort passes towards these multi resort passes that makes that region with an abundance of resorts more interesting. Conversely out here in the Far West, it is more ho hum, "we'll believe it when we see it" snow conditions. Another factor out here in the Tahoe region was the 4 year drought severely reduced visits that has had a continuing effect since it began to snow again. Thus 2010/11 was significantly larger than any of the good snow years since that ended as it takes time for many local visitors to once again have an interest.

Given the current December snow conditions in the Tahoe region are the best since 2010/11, one might expect numbers would be up, but not at all. Just read in our Tahoe thread what we are seeing during this holiday week period...a lack of people on slopes and in lift lines...really! In part that is because our region has a higher percentage of pass holders that were blacked out. Ski/board shops and sporting good retailers have done a booming business but many of those people are just now preparing to get out for the first time this season but need to wait till the black out dates end. Additionally, since 2011/12 our early October thru mid December snows have often been rather mediocre to the extent people don't expect to ski till the holiday period.

Another difference between the Far West and the Rockies is there is a larger variance between weekends and weekday skiers. Although Denver skiers/boarders flood their Rocky resorts on weekends, there are many destination visitors on all days. Finally at the 2 resorts on my Epic pass, HV and KW, I personally saw minimal crowds before the holiday week but expect to see a major uptick this coming month.

 

[Sibhusky]

mostly I hear that the ski industry is dying, and that there are not many new skiers coming into the sport, Whitefish must be doing something right!

We're cheap and close to the airport. Not on Ikon or Epic.

It also might be that the Polumbus siblings are doing a good job.

 

[ARL67]

Without the Ikon Pass, I doubt I would travel to the USA to ski because of the high cost of rack-rate lift tickets which I have to add another 35% for Canadian currency conversion. Without the great value of the Ikon Pass, I'd much rather go to Austria or western Canada. The Ikon Pass is the reason that I will be bringing my tourist dollars to the USA , so the resort & hotel & restaurants may appreciate me as a customer, but maybe not the locals for adding to the congestion. But at least I am a week-day only skier who avoids the weekend chaos, and doesn't add to it.

 

[Jilly]

I know that Tremblant was busy over the holidays. Tuesday was ridiculous. But really that is normal for a holiday period. Have to see what happens after this. As for the Ikon, I probably would not have skied Lake Louise after my business trip to Calgary without it. But going to the US to ski....still not happening with the 30-35% exchange. Have to be a special trip.

 

[dbostedo]

For reference, a little math done on the last two seasons... Overall visits were up 11.4%, but the big winner was the Rocky Mtn. region, with well over half of the total increase, and the second highest percentage:

SEASON	Northeast	Southeast	Midwest	Rocky Mtn.	Pacific Southwest	Pacific Northwest	Pacific West (total)	National Total	National Rank
2018/19	12.514	4.262	6.498	24.408	7.585	4.075	11.66	59.343	4
2017/18	11.987	4.161	6.257	20.792	6.227	3.85	10.081	53.273	24
Change	4.4	2.4	3.9	17.4	21.8	5.8	15.7	11.4
Percent	0.5	0.1	0.2	3.6	1.4	0.2	1.6	6.1

 

[GregK]

Saw the webcams at Whistler this morning and thought of this thread. Keeping in mind it’s raining at Whistler with poor conditions and these are the line ups still. Yikes!

 

[dbostedo]

^^^


If you click on the Village Cam you can get pics of the rest of the base area too... the last one with the line for the Village Gondola is crazy.

 

[PNWRod]

Christmas week was ridiculously busy. I'm about to give up skiing with crowds like this.

 

[GregK]

Christmas week was ridiculously busy. I'm about to give up skiing with crowds like this. View attachment 89077

No one likes a show off....lol

Think I’d rather be there than Whistler right now!
Just saw on Whistler’s twitter feed that people were waiting in lines over 45 mins to be told, there’s a mechanical issue on the lift. So some move behind hundreds of others in the Blackcomb lift instead and then the original Whistler lift opens 10 mins later with hundreds still left in that line. Some have waited 2 hours so far and haven’t left the village on a lift yet.

 

[pchewn]

Well, Mt Hood Skibowl this season is at 0, yes, zero skier visits...... Not open yet due to lack of snow.

 

[SBrown]

Looking at that sheet, the most interesting thing is that in 20 years, there is only a 20% growth total, and almost all of it is in the Rocky Mtn west

And the overall population growth in the Rocky Mountain West over that period is about 25% (I think ... need to look it up).

 

[crgildart]

No doubt folks from VA and south of VA are traveling West or North bumping up their numbers. It's 70 degrees out with heavy rain forecast here. Places are either closed or BAREly open. I didn't even consider a day trip over the holiday break even though I was off work the entire time. Just too crappy to fight crowds over.. Ya, there were still some crowds since people had stuff booked not easily cancelled, but smarter money traveled elsewhere.