Can you share what skis you're all on in this one, Bob?
-
For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.
Crudology - Its that time of year
- Thread starter Tricia
- Start date
-
- Tags
- bob barnes crudology
Can you share what skis you're all on in this one, Bob?
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2015
- Posts
- 24,839
Thanks for the video Bob! Wow, nice March.
Some of that terrain is very steep which is why the turns are coming so far across the fall line. I'm assuming some of it is lookers left off the Temerity lift at Aspen Highlands. Bob, where is it?
Aspen Highlands has amazing terrain.
I would guess Bob is on his Hart mid 70's ski in 176cm. That's what he generally skied when we were there in Feb. I don't think Hart sells it this year.
Some of that terrain is very steep which is why the turns are coming so far across the fall line. I'm assuming some of it is lookers left off the Temerity lift at Aspen Highlands. Bob, where is it?
Aspen Highlands has amazing terrain.
I would guess Bob is on his Hart mid 70's ski in 176cm. That's what he generally skied when we were there in Feb. I don't think Hart sells it this year.
Yes, it was a good March, James! We had several good storm systems pass through Aspen, after a fairly dry February. The powder fell on top of very firm conditions, with some rock-hard bumps, but there was enough of it to make the skiing great. It was fairly heavy powder, too, which helped soften the coral beneath.
You are right about the location--with the exception of Christian skiing in Highland Bowl, it was all filmed in the Temerity section of Aspen Highlands. That's the steep region to the south of (skier's right of) the Deep Temerity lift--a vast area of steep glades, gulleys, and trees both open and tight, between the DT lift and Highland Bowl. The "runs" we skied included South Castle Thermals, Lucky Charm, Lucky Find, Lady Luck, Mystery Gulley, Powerline, Mushroom, and Hyde Park. Many of these are not labeled on the map, but those familiar with Temerity will know where they are. They range in steepness from probably 30 degrees to 45 or so--from pretty steep to very steep!
You're right, too, that the skis I was on in this clip were 77mm underfoot, Blossom WhiteOuts, which are identical to the Hart Strikers (Blossom built the Strikers). Hart no longer sells the ski, but it is available from Blossom.
I don't know what to tell you, Amy. Chaos is a reality for this sort of skiing. It's part of the challenge, and part of its charm, but it is certainly an acquired taste. It's surely why so many skiers prefer virgin, bottomless, untracked powder over these conditions. Untracked powder is consistent and predictable--no surprises, no chaos--and once you get used to skiing it, it's one of the easiest conditions to ski. The powder in this clip, although plentiful, was not bottomless, and as it got a little tracked up, it grew increasingly variable and unpredictable. It formed a thick, soft layer on top of irregular bumps and troughs, and you could never be sure exactly what your skis would run into down below. Chaos!
While there is no substitute for mileage in these conditions, there are a few things you can do to prepare yourself and help ease the pain. First, adopt a "ready" stance that is stronger, more "aggressive" and athletic, and better prepared, perhaps, than your normal, taller, groomed/predictable snow stance. The terrain will rock you. Prepare to fight back! Think of a soccer or hockey goalie in the midst of the action, or the way you might stand on the pitching deck of a sailboat in a storm--flexed, tight "core," ready for immediate action and reaction in any direction.
Then, no matter how intimidating it may be, try to avoid becoming "defensive"--that is, using your skis as brakes by forcing them to skid sideways through the snow. However unpredictable they may be when slicing forward, they'll be much worse going sideways! Keep 'em going the direction they're pointing (rules #2 AND 3!), and they'll glide over and slice through (almost) anything. Visualize your intended path--look to where you want to go and commit to that line before starting every turn. Visualize each turn leading up a "runaway ramp" like the emergency ramps for trucks on mountain passes. You may not need to go all the way up to a stop, but knowing that you could if you had to will give you the confidence to point 'em down the hill to start the turn. Round your turns out to take advantage of the far "banks" of the bumps--it is a very common mistake to cut the turns off too quickly and either skid down the steep backside of the bump or worse, to get your skis "cross-threaded" in the narrow trough. Many bumps, especially in trees, form amazing "luge-track-like" shapes that will give you a smooth, if exhilarating, ride--if you can commit.
Look back into the run! Long before the turn ends, be sure to look back into the run for the next line, the next runaway ramp. This is especially critical in a narrow gulley or couloir where, if you don't see your next turn, you'll naturally bail out to a panic stop at the edge, probably jabbing your ski tips into the wall of snow, rock, or trees on the side. Always look back in to your next turn.
Work from both feet at once. Avoid "sequential" (one foot at a time) movements. Especially unreliable are "stem" or "step" turns where you stand on the downhill ski while lifting and turning the uphill ski tail uphill. That will, at best, put you into a skidded turn entry on one ski. And that downhill ski forms a highly unreliable "platform" to work from in variable conditions. You never know whether it will grip or slip, whether the snow will support you or break away beneath you, throwing you out of balance and foiling your effort to turn your other ski. So keep 'em working together with "simultaneous" movements. If you hop, hop from both skis and turn both of them together. (And if you feel the need to hop, seek to hop only to the fall line--skis pointing straight downhill--and then steer/carve through the finish of the turn. Except in extremely tight circumstances, you almost never need to hop your skis past the fall line. Let 'em run!)
Practice (on groomed runs) keeping your upper body as stable as a rock. It must not "rotate" to start turns, and you want to eliminate all "useless gesticulations" (as Aspen instructor Mike Mooney calls them). You're getting thrown around enough in chaotic conditions, so the last thing you want to do is add to the chaos with undisciplined upper body movements. With a stable upper body, you are much better prepared to react to unpredictable forces, and you're always ready to turn your skis either direction in an instant. Discipline is not the same as "stiff," though. Discipline takes practice, and becomes a habit. The more disciplined your upper body, the more freedom you will have with your legs and skis. Discipline will allow you to relax.
And get mileage. Lots of it. All of these things will help, but there is no substitute for mileage. You'll get better at predicting, at least roughly, what your skis will do in the snow, better at picking a good line, and more confident that you can handle the jostling and chaos. Remember that anyone can make a good turn in perfect balance. Great skiers are the ones who can make turns in "other" states of balance too. On groomed snow, practice making turns on the outside ski, the inside ski, one ski, both skis, on the tips, tails, and centers, and in the air--so you're ready for anything.
Adopt and live by the "50% Rule": fifty percent of great bump and crud skiing is skiing it well; the other fifty percent is skiing it anyway. Pick your stopping point before you start, and commit to it, no matter what. Remember that, if you had enough control to stop, you could have also kept going. Ski through the imbalance. Don't stop until you get to your pre-determined spot, unless you fall (which is certainly an honorable excuse for stopping). With practice, you'll gain the confidence to ski through the chaos!
You never know--you might just acquire the taste for it! (But remember that to get a good taste of these conditions, you've got to eat some....)
Best regards,
Bob Barnes
You are right about the location--with the exception of Christian skiing in Highland Bowl, it was all filmed in the Temerity section of Aspen Highlands. That's the steep region to the south of (skier's right of) the Deep Temerity lift--a vast area of steep glades, gulleys, and trees both open and tight, between the DT lift and Highland Bowl. The "runs" we skied included South Castle Thermals, Lucky Charm, Lucky Find, Lady Luck, Mystery Gulley, Powerline, Mushroom, and Hyde Park. Many of these are not labeled on the map, but those familiar with Temerity will know where they are. They range in steepness from probably 30 degrees to 45 or so--from pretty steep to very steep!
You're right, too, that the skis I was on in this clip were 77mm underfoot, Blossom WhiteOuts, which are identical to the Hart Strikers (Blossom built the Strikers). Hart no longer sells the ski, but it is available from Blossom.
I don't know what to tell you, Amy. Chaos is a reality for this sort of skiing. It's part of the challenge, and part of its charm, but it is certainly an acquired taste. It's surely why so many skiers prefer virgin, bottomless, untracked powder over these conditions. Untracked powder is consistent and predictable--no surprises, no chaos--and once you get used to skiing it, it's one of the easiest conditions to ski. The powder in this clip, although plentiful, was not bottomless, and as it got a little tracked up, it grew increasingly variable and unpredictable. It formed a thick, soft layer on top of irregular bumps and troughs, and you could never be sure exactly what your skis would run into down below. Chaos!
While there is no substitute for mileage in these conditions, there are a few things you can do to prepare yourself and help ease the pain. First, adopt a "ready" stance that is stronger, more "aggressive" and athletic, and better prepared, perhaps, than your normal, taller, groomed/predictable snow stance. The terrain will rock you. Prepare to fight back! Think of a soccer or hockey goalie in the midst of the action, or the way you might stand on the pitching deck of a sailboat in a storm--flexed, tight "core," ready for immediate action and reaction in any direction.
Then, no matter how intimidating it may be, try to avoid becoming "defensive"--that is, using your skis as brakes by forcing them to skid sideways through the snow. However unpredictable they may be when slicing forward, they'll be much worse going sideways! Keep 'em going the direction they're pointing (rules #2 AND 3!), and they'll glide over and slice through (almost) anything. Visualize your intended path--look to where you want to go and commit to that line before starting every turn. Visualize each turn leading up a "runaway ramp" like the emergency ramps for trucks on mountain passes. You may not need to go all the way up to a stop, but knowing that you could if you had to will give you the confidence to point 'em down the hill to start the turn. Round your turns out to take advantage of the far "banks" of the bumps--it is a very common mistake to cut the turns off too quickly and either skid down the steep backside of the bump or worse, to get your skis "cross-threaded" in the narrow trough. Many bumps, especially in trees, form amazing "luge-track-like" shapes that will give you a smooth, if exhilarating, ride--if you can commit.
Look back into the run! Long before the turn ends, be sure to look back into the run for the next line, the next runaway ramp. This is especially critical in a narrow gulley or couloir where, if you don't see your next turn, you'll naturally bail out to a panic stop at the edge, probably jabbing your ski tips into the wall of snow, rock, or trees on the side. Always look back in to your next turn.
Work from both feet at once. Avoid "sequential" (one foot at a time) movements. Especially unreliable are "stem" or "step" turns where you stand on the downhill ski while lifting and turning the uphill ski tail uphill. That will, at best, put you into a skidded turn entry on one ski. And that downhill ski forms a highly unreliable "platform" to work from in variable conditions. You never know whether it will grip or slip, whether the snow will support you or break away beneath you, throwing you out of balance and foiling your effort to turn your other ski. So keep 'em working together with "simultaneous" movements. If you hop, hop from both skis and turn both of them together. (And if you feel the need to hop, seek to hop only to the fall line--skis pointing straight downhill--and then steer/carve through the finish of the turn. Except in extremely tight circumstances, you almost never need to hop your skis past the fall line. Let 'em run!)
Practice (on groomed runs) keeping your upper body as stable as a rock. It must not "rotate" to start turns, and you want to eliminate all "useless gesticulations" (as Aspen instructor Mike Mooney calls them). You're getting thrown around enough in chaotic conditions, so the last thing you want to do is add to the chaos with undisciplined upper body movements. With a stable upper body, you are much better prepared to react to unpredictable forces, and you're always ready to turn your skis either direction in an instant. Discipline is not the same as "stiff," though. Discipline takes practice, and becomes a habit. The more disciplined your upper body, the more freedom you will have with your legs and skis. Discipline will allow you to relax.
And get mileage. Lots of it. All of these things will help, but there is no substitute for mileage. You'll get better at predicting, at least roughly, what your skis will do in the snow, better at picking a good line, and more confident that you can handle the jostling and chaos. Remember that anyone can make a good turn in perfect balance. Great skiers are the ones who can make turns in "other" states of balance too. On groomed snow, practice making turns on the outside ski, the inside ski, one ski, both skis, on the tips, tails, and centers, and in the air--so you're ready for anything.
Adopt and live by the "50% Rule": fifty percent of great bump and crud skiing is skiing it well; the other fifty percent is skiing it anyway. Pick your stopping point before you start, and commit to it, no matter what. Remember that, if you had enough control to stop, you could have also kept going. Ski through the imbalance. Don't stop until you get to your pre-determined spot, unless you fall (which is certainly an honorable excuse for stopping). With practice, you'll gain the confidence to ski through the chaos!
You never know--you might just acquire the taste for it! (But remember that to get a good taste of these conditions, you've got to eat some....)
Best regards,
Bob Barnes
Last edited:
By the way, Amy--consider too that what seems completely predictable and "non-chaotic" to you on a horse, is only so because of the mileage, skill, and confidence you've acquired. For a non-expert rider, I'm sure it would feel quite chaotic. Horses aren't 100% predictable either, and even if they were, you'd still have to get used to their movements to become confident, flowing, relaxed, and rhythmic. Am I right? Snow is not really so different. Give it time.
Best regards,
Bob
Best regards,
Bob
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2015
- Posts
- 4,123
Your dynamic balance is not off, your confidence in using it is off. The reality in weird skiing you just have to do the right thing despite not feeling right and it will work out.
Yes, Bob, for sure! I try to pat myself on the back for being accomplished at SOMETHING
as I am a fairly gifted rider, but I grew up riding and riding a lot and riding like a maniac, bareback, backward, double, you name it. Learning to ski as an adult is extremely difficult. But learning to ride a horse as an adult is probably equally as difficult! I have very good balance, touch, and timing on a horse. You'd think the parallels would be helpful, but they really aren't. And yes, horses are EXTREMELY unpredictable as a flight animal, and having the skills to handle them when they do something stupid is learned. I also can read them like a book and often tell when they are going to explode. And guess what habit I am trying to kick?? With some help from @4ster and a recently minted L3 instructor. But it's a really hard habit to kick. It comes back with a vengeance when I am skiing defensively, which happens anytime the snow starts to be unpredictable. I honestly could use an instructor with me on most days to kick my butt out of my habits. Unfortunately, that is very costly so doesn't happen.
I will be referring to your post often next season, I am sure! Thank you for the thoughtful, detailed response!!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2015
- Posts
- 4,123
Skis only react to your input and inputs from terrain. Horse react to your inputs, outside inputs and what ever they want to do in their mind.
I know which one is actually more trust worthy.
You are 100% correct! Listening to horses has been a lifelong skill that I continue to hone. They'll tell you a LOT, if you learn to listen to them. I learned several years ago that I had to be a VERY confident boss on my horses. I'd lose my brain when entering the show ring. I suppose that mentality could also be used in skiing difficult stuff, only as you said, the skis are going to be far more compliant.
My ski instructor called it "finding my inner warrior".
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2015
- Posts
- 24,839
Hey Bob, how do you ski your boots in terms of upper buckle tightness? Are they cranked very tight or looser? I'm pretty sure you're in Dobie plug 150's? Unless the earth's axis has shifted and you're now skiing a 110...
It's a bit of a conundrum. Often looser upper cuff leads to better balance and feel, tightening it down can restrict and start twisting the leg into a position that does not allow natural, ie very fast neural muscular body response, balance. Same with over constriction of feet.
Another good thing for cut up powder balance and chaos is to ski spring snow at some speed. Whatever that is for you. Just going straight through piles of stuff involved wuite a bit of chaos. You kind of get used to it.
There is also way more chaos in skiing than people tend to think. Esp when they look at advanced skiers and think that the skier is just making regular smooth turns and every turn is the same. Usually it's constant adjustment.
It's a bit of a conundrum. Often looser upper cuff leads to better balance and feel, tightening it down can restrict and start twisting the leg into a position that does not allow natural, ie very fast neural muscular body response, balance. Same with over constriction of feet.
Another good thing for cut up powder balance and chaos is to ski spring snow at some speed. Whatever that is for you. Just going straight through piles of stuff involved wuite a bit of chaos. You kind of get used to it.
There is also way more chaos in skiing than people tend to think. Esp when they look at advanced skiers and think that the skier is just making regular smooth turns and every turn is the same. Usually it's constant adjustment.
Translation: you have your choice of tight trees or really tight trees pitched somewhere between
and Temerity is awesome fun though. Thanks for the tour back in January @Bob Barnes ! I'd never find any of those lines again.
Thanks for the translation, Kevin. You do know the terrain in Temerity! It's awesome, and I miss it already, after we closed this past weekend. Glad we got to ski some of it together!
James--yes, I'm still skiing the Dobermann 150's. I buckle the cuffs quite snug and pull hard on the Booster straps (sturdy elastic after-market replacements for the velcro straps found on most boots). Contrary to what you suggested, I do this because I feel it helps my balance and "feel." I'm not using those cuffs for support (very often). For me, the cuffs serve two important functions for balance, in addition to providing leverage when I need to pressure the ski tips or tails (which is not that often). Snugged against my legs, they give me instant feedback about my state of fore-aft balance (combined with the feedback from the soles of my feet). It's important sensory "data." Generally, I'm pretty neutral fore-aft and in my boot cuffs, so those tight, stiff cuffs provide very direct feedback, in both directions. And, when the need arises, they provide strong leverage for regaining balance when I'm off--no "mushing" and bending when I need to push against them.
The downside, of course, is that stiff, snug boots strongly limit ankle mobility. That means you have to learn new, ski-specific movement patterns, using the other joints that influence fore-aft balance--knees, hips, spine, arms. Those are the joints that must do the heavy lifting for balance, freeing the subtle remaining range of motion of the ankles to do the fine-tuning. (And no matter what anyone thinks, even a 150 plug boot snugged tight still has a significant amount of "give" to allow some freedom for the ankles.)
The stiffer and snugger the boot, the more critical the setup. A stiff boot that holds your lower legs at the wrong angle (too upright, or too much forward lean) will impede fore-aft balance and severely limit the range of flexion and extension available to manage forces and absorb bumps.
So stiff boots are not the answer for everyone. They are unforgiving and demand refined ski-specific learned movements. And they must be expertly setup. For many skiers, softer or looser boots are just easier. Stiff boots are also a pain to get in and out of, especially when they're cold. But for me, it's worth it.
And I know that you agree, James!gcool
Best regards,
Bob
James--yes, I'm still skiing the Dobermann 150's. I buckle the cuffs quite snug and pull hard on the Booster straps (sturdy elastic after-market replacements for the velcro straps found on most boots). Contrary to what you suggested, I do this because I feel it helps my balance and "feel." I'm not using those cuffs for support (very often). For me, the cuffs serve two important functions for balance, in addition to providing leverage when I need to pressure the ski tips or tails (which is not that often). Snugged against my legs, they give me instant feedback about my state of fore-aft balance (combined with the feedback from the soles of my feet). It's important sensory "data." Generally, I'm pretty neutral fore-aft and in my boot cuffs, so those tight, stiff cuffs provide very direct feedback, in both directions. And, when the need arises, they provide strong leverage for regaining balance when I'm off--no "mushing" and bending when I need to push against them.
The downside, of course, is that stiff, snug boots strongly limit ankle mobility. That means you have to learn new, ski-specific movement patterns, using the other joints that influence fore-aft balance--knees, hips, spine, arms. Those are the joints that must do the heavy lifting for balance, freeing the subtle remaining range of motion of the ankles to do the fine-tuning. (And no matter what anyone thinks, even a 150 plug boot snugged tight still has a significant amount of "give" to allow some freedom for the ankles.)
The stiffer and snugger the boot, the more critical the setup. A stiff boot that holds your lower legs at the wrong angle (too upright, or too much forward lean) will impede fore-aft balance and severely limit the range of flexion and extension available to manage forces and absorb bumps.
So stiff boots are not the answer for everyone. They are unforgiving and demand refined ski-specific learned movements. And they must be expertly setup. For many skiers, softer or looser boots are just easier. Stiff boots are also a pain to get in and out of, especially when they're cold. But for me, it's worth it.
And I know that you agree, James!
gcoolBest regards,
Bob
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2015
- Posts
- 4,123
I could not imagine skiing real crud with my lower leg locked into my boot. the idea of every little undulation causing a hit between my boot and my shin just sounds painful.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2015
- Posts
- 24,839
Still not used to you in a helmet
Well I consider ski boots a biblical pestilence. I have battled the plague of the plug for the last dozen years or so. Certainly no worse than the other locusts and fire ants. The issue is the setup. I think your narrow shin/calf might be well suited to that boot. Currently, I can't crank the cuff down or it locks up the whole foot, ankle, balance system. Shocks go right up to the back. But another visit to @cgeib 's garage is in order.
Last edited:
Thread Starter
TS
Why? Are you going to rush out and buy them?
Still not used to you in a helmet
Well I consider ski boots a biblical pestilence. I have battled the plague of the plug for the last dozen years or so. Certainly no worse than the other locusts and fire ants. The issue is the setup. I think you're narrow shin/calf might be well suited to that boot. Currently, I can't crank the cuff down or it locks up the whole foot, ankle, balance system. Shocks go right up to the back. But another visit to @cgeib 's garage is in order.
Hmmm.... guess we have some work to do...
I admit that while skiing the variable spring conditions at Copper yesterday, @Bob Barnes Cardinal Rules were ticker-taping through my head. 
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2015
- Posts
- 24,839
The fact that one can ski moguls, powder, crud with stiff plug boots means that the conventional thinking is missing something important.
Supposedly this is near impossible unless one has the strength and body of Bode, Ligety, the Hermanator, Lindsey, etc. You need that body type to flex the boot. Maybe not? I remember being at Aspen Highlands for an ESA. We were on a mogul run standing at the top with a well known boot fitter. Bob went down and the fitter remarked that he wouldn't have thought that was possible with that boot setup.
That doesn't mean everyone should be in a stiff boot but it does mean something is off in our understanding.
I think some people have feet and lower legs more suited to skiing than others. From what I've read tight, compact feet and relatively thin lower legs work best. Feet are probably most important. Loose feet are problematic. Those who have appropriate foot types develop better at a young age and acquire a sense of what's going on.
Supposedly this is near impossible unless one has the strength and body of Bode, Ligety, the Hermanator, Lindsey, etc. You need that body type to flex the boot. Maybe not? I remember being at Aspen Highlands for an ESA. We were on a mogul run standing at the top with a well known boot fitter. Bob went down and the fitter remarked that he wouldn't have thought that was possible with that boot setup.
That doesn't mean everyone should be in a stiff boot but it does mean something is off in our understanding.
I think some people have feet and lower legs more suited to skiing than others. From what I've read tight, compact feet and relatively thin lower legs work best. Feet are probably most important. Loose feet are problematic. Those who have appropriate foot types develop better at a young age and acquire a sense of what's going on.
Sponsor
Members online
- BLiP
- David Chaus
- Jack skis
- zircon
- Kite Pilot
- COSkier87
- Dos-Equis
- gwasson
- smv
- dbostedo
- JibingDownhill
- freeskier1961
- GB_Ski
- Alexzn
- jwilli
- Jersey Skier
- Gina D
- wooglin
- jetwolverine
- DanoT
- SpeedyKevin
- tball
- chip inderhol
- S.H.
- dovski
- Mike King
- Spnole
- jmeb
- smick
- raisingarizona
- Even_Stevens
- tomahawkins
- GregK
- sabotabbster
- Yepow
- Philpug
- Spoorosew
- PaganSkier
- BigSlick
- tazdevl
- SCWVA
- Cheizz
- NE1
- Miker
- RachelV
- butleri
- jt10000
- Ogg
- az29okg
- MOMENTinTime