- Joined
- Dec 21, 2015
- Posts
- 4,123
its all about ramp angle being correct so the boots do not have to flex all that much.
-
For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.
Crudology - Its that time of year
- Thread starter Tricia
- Start date
-
- Tags
- bob barnes crudology
Thread Starter
TS
To the point of stiff(er) boots, I don't think everyone needs a stiff boot but I believe that physiology comes in to play and skiers ski better with a boot stiffness that fits their anatomy.
Thread Starter
TS
Actually, there's more to it than ramp angle. But you're right that it factors into the correct balance.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2015
- Posts
- 24,827
According to David MacPhail, ramp angle should be about 2.7 degrees. But very important is space for the foot esp the big toe. The tongue should not block the ankle glide path- base of shin tongue to instep should be cut out. How he sets forward lean I'm not sure. I think Josh is on key with the ramp.
Well it's interesting that Sven Coomer backs this notion as it seems to have been lost in the general boot world. It's all about "flexing" it seems. Esp in race coaching. How much does Mikaela or Ted actually flex the boot?
From Skiing History, "Letter from Sven Coomer"
[bold added]
...
The Nordica Comp 3 (1978) was the first three-piece shell used in all FIS events, and also included the first lace-up inner boot used in plastic shells. I used the Meteor shell as the prototype for the Comp 3.
The shell-tongue was originally inside the shell, which I deemed most effective for anchoring the foot and heels, and the shell also contained the internal tongue “inner shell” from deforming when flexing (below in light blue and positioned here outside the Comp 3 shell). Likewise this stabilized balance and control.
The Nordica Meteor last was exceptional, and it made a very powerful and stable boot … so I modified some details and used that (the black shell on the left, below) to create the Flexon last. The first molded Flexon shell is the white one on the right with the first convoluted black tongue which you can see inside.
The convoluted tongue however had to be trimmed so that it would NOT push-back when the skier-racers wanted to stay forward. So often the push-back effect you mention was disconcerting. It was logical in static shop-floor theory and mind-sets but not in practice. For example, when driving through ruts and unexpected terrain or snow changes the ski was instead pushed forwards under and ahead of the skier leaving him/her in the back-seat and grappling for recoveries.
I see in their web site that Full Tilt (the K2 subsidiary that now makes and sells the Flexon boot) continues to promote the excessive ankle-flexing action … which is contrary to what experts and racers use. Experts and racers do NOT flex their ankles because excessive and dangerous range-of- motion (+ 7 degrees) promotes ankle instability, loss of balance and control, less leverage over the bindings to release … and loads the knees and quads excessively. Bending the ankles is for the intermediate stemmers and portly bellies.
Instead the experts-racers flex between the hips and knees. There is some cushion-absorption effect in the padding and functional power straps, Boosters. etc. A totally different range-of-motion than … “Bend zee knees (and ankles) $5 pleeze” is long since gone. In fact since Aspen Interski 1968 and the revival of the Official Austrian Ski Technique and especially the transition to plastic boots.
(Anyway, it’s now $700 please.)
When the fore-aft ankle balance is in neutral … that is when skiing ability boomed … Before plastic boots, the Paranoids chutes at Mammoth only had a few tracks … and by the late 70′s there were moguls within hours after each snow storm.
https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/origin-three-piece-ski-boot
No date.
"Bending the ankles is for the intermediate stemmers and portly bellies. Instead the experts-racers flex between the hips and knees"
Classic.
Paranoid Flats is about 40 deg I think.
Here's something from David MacPhail in response to a question.
"Does stiffness relate to the entire boot structure, or just the cuff part that the skier leans into?
> Stiffness relates to the entire boot structure. Although the common perception is that a skier ‘leans’ onto the front of the boot cuff to apply force to the front of the ski this is physically impossible unless one is standing at a bar with their skis on while having a beer.
Racers such as Mikaela Shiffrin use the front of the boot cuff to stabilize what I call the reference shank angle so they can apply maximum force under the ball of the outside foot. Contrary to what most experts espouse, the reference position of the shank is established at the start of a turn and maintained until the end of a turn with changes [in] joint angles limited to the knee and hip."
Skier's Manifesto Blog
https://skimoves.me/54-2/about/
Well it's interesting that Sven Coomer backs this notion as it seems to have been lost in the general boot world. It's all about "flexing" it seems. Esp in race coaching. How much does Mikaela or Ted actually flex the boot?
From Skiing History, "Letter from Sven Coomer"
[bold added]
...
The Nordica Comp 3 (1978) was the first three-piece shell used in all FIS events, and also included the first lace-up inner boot used in plastic shells. I used the Meteor shell as the prototype for the Comp 3.
The shell-tongue was originally inside the shell, which I deemed most effective for anchoring the foot and heels, and the shell also contained the internal tongue “inner shell” from deforming when flexing (below in light blue and positioned here outside the Comp 3 shell). Likewise this stabilized balance and control.
The Nordica Meteor last was exceptional, and it made a very powerful and stable boot … so I modified some details and used that (the black shell on the left, below) to create the Flexon last. The first molded Flexon shell is the white one on the right with the first convoluted black tongue which you can see inside.
The convoluted tongue however had to be trimmed so that it would NOT push-back when the skier-racers wanted to stay forward. So often the push-back effect you mention was disconcerting. It was logical in static shop-floor theory and mind-sets but not in practice. For example, when driving through ruts and unexpected terrain or snow changes the ski was instead pushed forwards under and ahead of the skier leaving him/her in the back-seat and grappling for recoveries.
I see in their web site that Full Tilt (the K2 subsidiary that now makes and sells the Flexon boot) continues to promote the excessive ankle-flexing action … which is contrary to what experts and racers use. Experts and racers do NOT flex their ankles because excessive and dangerous range-of- motion (+ 7 degrees) promotes ankle instability, loss of balance and control, less leverage over the bindings to release … and loads the knees and quads excessively. Bending the ankles is for the intermediate stemmers and portly bellies.
Instead the experts-racers flex between the hips and knees. There is some cushion-absorption effect in the padding and functional power straps, Boosters. etc. A totally different range-of-motion than … “Bend zee knees (and ankles) $5 pleeze” is long since gone. In fact since Aspen Interski 1968 and the revival of the Official Austrian Ski Technique and especially the transition to plastic boots.
(Anyway, it’s now $700 please.) When the fore-aft ankle balance is in neutral … that is when skiing ability boomed … Before plastic boots, the Paranoids chutes at Mammoth only had a few tracks … and by the late 70′s there were moguls within hours after each snow storm.
https://www.skiinghistory.org/history/origin-three-piece-ski-boot
No date.
"Bending the ankles is for the intermediate stemmers and portly bellies. Instead the experts-racers flex between the hips and knees"
Classic.
Paranoid Flats is about 40 deg I think.
Here's something from David MacPhail in response to a question.
"Does stiffness relate to the entire boot structure, or just the cuff part that the skier leans into?
> Stiffness relates to the entire boot structure. Although the common perception is that a skier ‘leans’ onto the front of the boot cuff to apply force to the front of the ski this is physically impossible unless one is standing at a bar with their skis on while having a beer.
Racers such as Mikaela Shiffrin use the front of the boot cuff to stabilize what I call the reference shank angle so they can apply maximum force under the ball of the outside foot. Contrary to what most experts espouse, the reference position of the shank is established at the start of a turn and maintained until the end of a turn with changes [in] joint angles limited to the knee and hip."
Skier's Manifesto Blog
https://skimoves.me/54-2/about/
Last edited:
I have some instruments at the animal hospital that can accomplish this if James is interested. I will have to check them when I fly out for Mother's Day. And someone will have to help hold James steady for me.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2015
- Posts
- 24,827
I'm going to be snowboarding...
I saw what @SkiNurse and @dondenver did to @FairToMiddlin 's toe. The screams are still echoing around Carbondale.
I saw what @SkiNurse and @dondenver did to @FairToMiddlin 's toe. The screams are still echoing around Carbondale.
I wanted to 'like' this, but... I really can't. Maybe Don or SkiNurse can. Somebody should.
Last edited:
Not if it consensualDone...but does that make me a saidst because I like it?
What ... he could be a masochist 
I have only looked at the first couple of minutes of the first video so far, but what I notice is that most of these turns are happening in the air. That is certainly the place where a turn encounters the least resistance, so it makes sense with really obnoxious snow. My question is, do you think that if these skiers were on fatter skis, they might not feel the need to turn in the air so much?
I'm getting my feet altered this summer =/ I went with the unconventional "doctor in white jacket" approach, though.
Oh, and lest I not forget, @Bob Barnes , thank you for making these videos! I've been stuck at home this week with a miserable cold, and watching people bouncing playfully through the snow is a definite pick me up.
Oh to be young, strong and energetic again. Geezers like me remember when all the snow was more or less crud. No grooming, loads of giant moguls with all sorts of snow everywhere. Thanks for post this.
Done...but does that make me a sadist because I like it?
"So why do you go out with that sadist?"
Shrugs... " Beats me. "
Sorry about that.
Tony, about 80% of our skiable terrain NEVER sees a groomer. If you're bored, head on down for a few days.
Tony, about 80% of our skiable terrain NEVER sees a groomer. If you're bored, head on down for a few days.
Just don't have the jam anymore for that stuff. Groomers or fluff are my choices now.
Bump for an awesome video for this time of year (A-basin next week!):
And, these fantastic crud tips from Bob Barnes:
www.skitalk.com
That video is 10 years old and Bob's tips are 5 years old. Has crud skiing technique changed since then?
And, these fantastic crud tips from Bob Barnes:
Crudology - Its that time of year
Here's a little spring powder skiing to go with Crudology, hot off the press: All the skiing in this clip took place in the past few weeks, at Aspen Highlands. This is what instructors do when they have a little free time! What a shame it all must end soon.... (I'm the guy with the orange...
www.skitalk.com
That video is 10 years old and Bob's tips are 5 years old. Has crud skiing technique changed since then?
You mean you haven't bought any of the new crud skis, and taken your crud lessons to learn how to use them properly?
Sponsor
Members online
- dusty
- Toddski13
- Ogg
- Nelliefj40
- Ulf
- blackke17
- Spoorosew
- Stev
- charlier
- BLiP
- tothetrail
- dovski
- Andy Mink
- mdf
- Tom351
- Spnole
- Tricia
- deadheadskier
- Eleeski
- skiki
- Ric3
- Mothertucker
- Shawn
- Peak203f
- Superbman
- Philpug
- RickyG
- willy384
- zircon
- evr66
- GregK
- Jerez
- Pacobillie
- Plai
- SnowMachine
- bluefish
- Don4Fun
- MissySki
- Living Proof
- T-Square
- AUdicky
- Wasatchman
- jmeb
- teejaywhy
- anders_nor
- aveski
- KevinF
- scvaughn
- RTsucks
- no edge