Crypto Currency and Skiing

[Cyrus Schenck]

we were far from timing it well, but making extra $ isn't why we did it. Memes plz!

 

[James]

Hmm thread gone a bit quiet recently - where are the crypto bros right now with their meme stonks?

I got an image ad with Giselle Bunchen posing. Can’t remember what site it was.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

Crypto is still priced as a cross currency to USD. No different to AUD, THB, ZIM, YEN, LKR, RUB, CHF etc.

Except that Bitcoin price fluctuates widely and is complicated. Any complex.

The definition of money has been agreed upon, since Menger, as a unit of account, store of value, and medium of exchange.

What Menger, and those that came after him, haven't described money as is SIMPLICITY. This is where crypto fails.

I can cross exchange AUD, THB, ZIM, YEN, LKR, RUB, CHF to USD because of simplicity.

The US dollar is just a piece of cotton of paper, albeit, very hard to counterfeit. It's similar to AUD, which is a piece of polymer. I can go to a forex trader in a mall and they would recognise a piece of cotton that is the US dollar and exchange it for AUD polymer notes. Simple.

The US dollar is accepted as a digital currency when deposited to a US dollar account in a bank. Simple.

I can purchase a ski, priced in USD, from a US online merchant, and they have online tools to convert that to AUD from my credit card company. Simple.

The latter two points, banks exchanging USD to AUD and vice versa, and online merchants having the tools to process payments via Visa, Mastercard, American Express, etc, is only simple because the banks, through BIS and various international conventions, and credit card companies, have setup the infrastructure to make it look "simple" in the past 35 years.

I don't see cryptos, like Bitcoin, having the infrastructure to make their transactions look simple.

The 12 digit credit card number and the physical card itself is simple. It may not have been in the beginning. But through advertisement, the mass public was educated how to use it and have the confidence to trust it.

Of course, it wasn't just the card itself and the 12 digit and mass advertisement that gave rise to public confidence. There was a security and IT infrastructure behind it. For example, the credit card company's security personnel are deployed to a merchant that knowingly or erroneously charges a credit card incorrectly or fraudulently. People have confidence to use credit cards because they know the credit card companies will refund fraudulent or erroneous transactions almost 100% of the time.

Bitcoin doesn't have this. Nobody has confidence that you can get a refund from a fraudulent Bitcoin transaction or have someone on the phone reset your Bitcoin password or stop transactions from a wallet that was stolen. Unlike credit cards.

Bitcoin doesn't have simplicity. I don't even know what the fuck it is. Everybody knows what a credit card and debit card is and a password to an online website and and ATM machine showing the number of money you have.

Bitcoin is a niche money that is not simple at all, and this is why it will never get mass acceptance. Money should be:
a unit of account
medium of exchange
store of value
simple

Bitcoin fails in the simple category and store of value, given the wild fluctuation in the last 10 years.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The one thing this thread has made clear to me is that there are many members here who understand crypto currency much better than I do.

There are many members on this forum who understand many things much better than I do. Educational serendipity strikes often on this forum. Thread drift is a big contributor to this phenomenon.

I read threads whose topics I'm not particularly interested in for this very reason.

 

[LiquidFeet]

would recommend reading The Creature From Jekyll Island

Looked up the author G. Edward Griffin in Wikipedia. Below is the opening paragraph.

G. Edward Griffin (born November 7, 1931) is an American author, filmmaker, and conspiracy theorist. Griffin's writings promote a number of right-wing views and conspiracy theories regarding various of his political, defense and health care interests. In his book World Without Cancer, he argued in favor of a pseudo-scientific theory that asserted cancer to be a nutritional deficiency curable by consuming amygdalin.[1][2][3] He is the author of The Creature from Jekyll Island (1994),[1] which advances debunked conspiracy theories[4] about the Federal Reserve System. He is an HIV/AIDS denialist, supports the 9/11 Truth movement, and supports the specific John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory that Oswald was not the assassin.[1] He also believes that the Biblical Noah's Ark is located at the Durupınar site in Turkey.[5]

 

[ilovepugs]

Looked up the author G. Edward Griffin in Wikipedia. Below is the opening paragraph.

G. Edward Griffin (born November 7, 1931) is an American author, filmmaker, and conspiracy theorist. Griffin's writings promote a number of right-wing views and conspiracy theories regarding various of his political, defense and health care interests. In his book World Without Cancer, he argued in favor of a pseudo-scientific theory that asserted cancer to be a nutritional deficiency curable by consuming amygdalin.[1][2][3] He is the author of The Creature from Jekyll Island (1994),[1] which advances debunked conspiracy theories[4] about the Federal Reserve System. He is an HIV/AIDS denialist, supports the 9/11 Truth movement, and supports the specific John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory that Oswald was not the assassin.[1] He also believes that the Biblical Noah's Ark is located at the Durupınar site in Turkey.[5]

That’s an…interesting book recommendation.

 

[crosscountry]

For example, the credit card company's security personnel are deployed to a merchant that knowingly or erroneously charges a credit card incorrectly or fraudulently. People have confidence to use credit cards because they know the credit card companies will refund fraudulent or erroneous transactions almost 100% of the time.

This is what we take for granted now. But I don't believe that has always been the case in the early days of credit cards.

Crypto is still in its infancy. We don't know yet where it will go from here. It may die off, or take off and replace some of the current monetary infrastructure. Or it may co-exist with what we know now.

 

[Cyrus Schenck]

That’s an…interesting book recommendation.

oo that is interesting!
regardless, most Americans don't know the 'federal' reserve is a private entity... has nothing to do with the federal government. That's no conspiracy

 

[ilovepugs]

oo that is interesting!
regardless, most Americans don't know the 'federal' reserve is a private entity... has nothing to do with the federal government. That's no conspiracy

This is misinformation. It is supposed to be a politically independent entity (important for its role in regulating the monetary supply) overseen by a Board of Governors. The Board of Governors is appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate.

I’m bummed to learn that you have been drawn to these misinformed beliefs and are spreading this misinformation. You are a bright dude and I have been rooting for you from within Chittenden County’s venture and entrepreneurial ecosystem. And I like your skis.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

This is what we take for granted now. But I don't believe that has always been the case in the early days of credit cards.

Crypto is still in its infancy. We don't know yet where it will go from here. It may die off, or take off and replace some of the current monetary infrastructure. Or it may co-exist with what we know now.

Yes I did point that out that there was massive advertising effort to educate the masses about credit cards because there was a marketing industry behind it.

If you remember that scene in the movie pretty woman where Richard Gere leaves Julia Roberts his credit card for her to go to town with it on her shopping spree, I don't think scenes like that are an accident. That's educating the masses to bearer feature of credit cards. That whoever physically holds the credit card, is the bearer of the financial instrument (much like bearer bonds and the dollar note).

Is crypto a bearer financial instrument? I think it is. But nobody knows because we're not being sufficiently educated about it.

The marketing problem of crypto will be similar to the marketing problem of desktop Linux. Desktop Linux could be comparable to Apple or Microsoft OS's but because it's an engineer driven initiative without marketing people, it never caught even after many decades. That same fate could happen to crypto engineers and their beloved Bitcoin because they detest marketing people.

Simplicity is a function of time x marketing. The longer time goes and the more marketing you put into a product, the more simple it becomes.

But there's still a complexity problem inherent to crypto, even if masses were sufficiently educated on how to use it.

Even though there's a massive human and technological infrastructure behind credit cards, it's still just a form of double entry bookkeeping at its core. The concept of double entry bookkeeping, which is now more than 700 years old, can be explained even to the densest credit card using airhead in 15 minutes.

The concept behind crypto is so complex and when you toss the energy component to it and the arrogant evangelists who harp on that "it's math bro, you will never understand it", people will tune out of learning about it, if they can learn about it.

 

[crosscountry]

The concept behind crypto is so complex

Not at all. It isn't complex per se. But as long as it's a geek's play toys, who would have bothered to learn it?

The concept behind the odd of betting on horse racing track is no less simple. But people don't care to "understand" it. They just bet on it. Win or lose. Take the money and run. Or lose your shirt in it.

People who "invest" in crypto don't bother to understand it. They don't need to, no more than they need to understand the odds of betting on horses. They are gamblers just like those on the track side. As a "currency", it's worth as much as someone else is willing to trade something real for it. Simple as that!

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

Not at all. It isn't complex per se. But as long as it's a geek's play toys, who would have bothered to learn it?

The concept behind the odd of betting on horse racing track is no less simple. But people don't care to "understand" it. They just bet on it. Win or lose. Take the money and run. Or lose your shirt in it.

People who "invest" in crypto don't bother to understand it. They don't need to, no more than they need to understand the odds of betting on horses. They are gamblers just like those on the track side. As a "currency", it's worth as much as someone else is willing to trade something real for it. Simple as that!

There's some value to crypto. Imagine you're a Ukrainian and you have liquidated your hard assets with the imminent Russian invasion and need to leave Ukraine with your bundles of cash, there's a risk of that money getting stolen or confiscated at the border. Plonking some of that money into Bitcoin is a very valuable utility for Bitcoin in terms of cross border transport of money. I believe spikes in Bitcoin price coincided with such events, as when Beijing was starting to crack down on Chinese repatriating their money overseas to leave China and move their wealth overseas. There was a spike in Bitcoin price at the same time.

But for daily currency use like buying a pair of skis overseas and having it delivered to Australia? Bitcoin is shit. I'll stick to credit cards thanks.

 

[crosscountry]

There's some value to crypto. Imagine you're a Ukrainian and you have liquidated your hard assets with the imminent Russian invasion and need to leave Ukraine with your bundles of cash, there's a risk of that currency getting stolen or confiscated at the border. Plonking some of that money into Bitcoin is a very valuable utility for Bitcoin in terms of cross border transport of money.

So can the computer on which the bitcoin was stored be confiscated at the border.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

So can the computer on which the bitcoin was stored being confiscated at the border.

Online wallet?

 

[crosscountry]

Online wallet?

Still the same problem. One needs to get the cash to where it can be converted into bitcoin. If one can do that, it might be just as easy to deposit it into a bank.

About as safe as sewing the cash into the sole of one's shoes.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

If one can do that, it might be just as easy to deposit it into a bank.

Banks are now heavily regulated for cross border transport of money.

 

[ilovepugs]

I believe spikes in Bitcoin price coincided with such events, as when Beijing was starting to crack down on Chinese repatriating their money overseas to leave China and move their wealth overseas. There was a spike in Bitcoin price at the same time.

yup, and now cryptocurrency is banned in China. Too obvious of a means to circumvent capital controls.

 

[fatbob]

But for daily currency use like buying a pair of skis overseas and having it delivered to Australia? Bitcoin is shit. I'll stick to credit cards thanks.

Shit unless that Bitcoin is untaxed/undisclosed income or from dubious activities. In which case having "ordinary" outlets in which to spend it without converting through one's one bank accounts might be useful. Which is why I take a pretty dim view of "ordinary" businesses choosing to take payment in crypto as they aren't actually they're just doing the laundering bit on their end - they're basically saying "we know some of you have reasons not to pay us in normal established ways and that's ok by us".

On the matter of necessity - it's only degrees of paranoia and greed that separate refugees from those hiding their money from the state in more stable economies.

 

[Pokitren]

Looked up the author G. Edward Griffin in Wikipedia. Below is the opening paragraph.

G. Edward Griffin (born November 7, 1931) is an American author, filmmaker, and conspiracy theorist. Griffin's writings promote a number of right-wing views and conspiracy theories regarding various of his political, defense and health care interests. In his book World Without Cancer, he argued in favor of a pseudo-scientific theory that asserted cancer to be a nutritional deficiency curable by consuming amygdalin.[1][2][3] He is the author of The Creature from Jekyll Island (1994),[1] which advances debunked conspiracy theories[4] about the Federal Reserve System. He is an HIV/AIDS denialist, supports the 9/11 Truth movement, and supports the specific John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory that Oswald was not the assassin.[1] He also believes that the Biblical Noah's Ark is located at the Durupınar site in Turkey.[5]

After reading such a book a person can become a fanatic... I know a modern czar who read such books. He made wars during his entire reign...

Not at all. It isn't complex per se. But as long as it's a geek's play toys, who would have bothered to learn it?

The concept behind the odd of betting on horse racing track is no less simple. But people don't care to "understand" it. They just bet on it. Win or lose. Take the money and run. Or lose your shirt in it.

People who "invest" in crypto don't bother to understand it. They don't need to, no more than they need to understand the odds of betting on horses. They are gamblers just like those on the track side. As a "currency", it's worth as much as someone else is willing to trade something real for it. Simple as that!

Yes, that has been the case from the beginning. And something like this will appear in the future. Because people are prone to excitement. And sellers like to put a price on their merchandise, it makes their lives more fun. Personally, I think electricity is more valuable than cryptocurrency, because if there is no electricity, there will be no cryptocurrency.

 

[RJS]

would recommend reading The Creature From Jekyll Island

Cyrus, I am disappointed that you are recommending this book. Not only have the economic theories contained in that book been debunked, but the author delves into conspiracy theories and anti-semitism that were inappropriate in 1994 and are especially inappropriate in 2022. As @LiquidFeet shared, this is the same author that believes that Flight 93 was shot down by the government and that HIV isn't real.

oo that is interesting!
regardless, most Americans don't know the 'federal' reserve is a private entity... has nothing to do with the federal government. That's no conspiracy

To echo @ilovepugs, the idea that the Federal Reserve "has nothing to do with the federal government" is not true, it is a "quasi-governmental agency with a board of governors selected by the President and approved by Congress" (source). You can find more information about the Fed's structure on their website.

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The reason that seeing this book recommendation or hearing misinformation being perpetuated is especially disappointing is that I've been following the journey of Renoun for years on these forums. It's been wonderful seeing this indy company from Vermont, a place close to my heart, grow and succeed and absolutely crush Pugski/Skitalk's annual ski reviews. As much as I love participating in these forums and learning more about the behind-the-scenes of the sport, this is one case where ignorance is bliss and I wish I hadn't read this thread. I have no qualification for giving this unsolicited advice, but @Cyrus Schenck as the CEO and face of a brand, I recommend that you be more careful about what you post in public forums like this, especially as the topic moves further away from skiing. I'm happy to see industry insiders like yourself posting here because you have a lot of wisdom to share when it comes to skiing, but when you share inaccurate information or sources tainted by anti-semitism that is going to affect people's perception of your brand. Personally, I don't love cancel culture and don't think that bad post or two is a good reason to stop supporting a brand, but regardless it's important in public to either be careful about what you post or consider not posting at all.

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Back to the topic of the thread, I doubt accepting crypto as payment is resulting if many (if any) sales that wouldn't have occurred otherwise. The primary reason for accepting crypto right now is as a marketing/PR tactic, and given how many pages this thread is already it's clearly a tactic that is working!