Custom footbeds, take 'em out?

[Steve]

There is some new experimentation, particularly by Tom Gellie, with skiing without custom footbeds, and it being better. That without arch support and other things that to a certain degree limit range of motion of the foot, people ski better.

I've played with taking out my foot beds, both standing on them alone vs. standing on the floor without them and having them in my boots and taking them out. I put back in the stock footbeds that came with the boots and tried those.

I feel like I have more control without the custom footbeds. Particularly fore/aft. The arch support seems to block the movements of the subtalar joint. My foot beds were made by Greg Hoffman years ago, and checked by Nick Blaylock last year.

I will experiment with this on snow soon.

My question is: what do they do? What is the theory/concept behind using them? They do seem to create more pressure on the inside edge as the gap under the arch is filled. But there's other ways to do that (tip more for example.)

We all take for granted that custom footbeds are needed by most skiers. Conventional wisdom.

With the green light to challenge this given to me by Gellie, I now open the conversation to the actual advantages, not assumed advantages.

 

[Tony S]

There is some new experimentation, particularly by Tom Gellie, with skiing without custom footbeds, and it being better. That without arch support and other things that to a certain degree limit range of motion of the foot, people ski better.

I've played with taking out my foot beds, both standing on them alone vs. standing on the floor without them and having them in my boots and taking them out. I put back in the stock footbeds that came with the boots and tried those.

I feel like I have more control without the custom footbeds. Particularly fore/aft. The arch support seems to block the movements of the subtalar joint. My foot beds were made by Greg Hoffman years ago, and checked by Nick Blaylock last year.

I will experiment with this on snow soon.

My question is: what do they do? What is the theory/concept behind using them? They do seem to create more pressure on the inside edge as the gap under the arch is filled. But there's other ways to do that (tip more for example.)

We all take for granted that custom footbeds are needed by most skiers. Conventional wisdom.

With the green light to challenge this given to me by Gellie, I now open the conversation to the actual advantages, not assumed advantages.

Probably important to understand each subject's foot and stance, right? Seems like a blanket statement would be hard to apply usefully.
Doesn't matter whether I'm skiing or biking or running or just waking down the street, this over-pronator has an inexplicable preference for having his ankle joint stacked over his foot, not hanging in midair off the medial side. (Note that in an alpine boot this means "not constantly pressuring the ankle region inside of the shell on the medial side.") I feel like the footbed helps my access to BOTH edges. I know full well what skiing and doing other sports without a footbed is like because I did that for most of my life.

 

[François Pugh]

I don't take it for granted at all. It depends on the feet.

My experience is that I ski better in boots with good custom footbeds. As I understand it the possible reason for that is 1) they provide a better fit that provides a closer relationship between what my foot does and what the boot does = better precise control, and 2) they provide better support when dealing with extremely high forces present in high speed aggressive skiing on hard snow.

It could be that I just haven't skied with good non-custom footbeds. Due to undiagnosed diabetes doing a number on my feet. I recently got fitted for and purchased some new boots that do not have custom footbeds; they have warmer Sidas footbeds to go with the Sidas Heaters and bootgloves. Essential and primary criteria was keeping my feet warm on cold days. I don't expect them to provide the same degree of control that my old "raceboots" provide, but at least I'll still have feet to put in them; it get's cold here in Sudbury. I'll let you know how they work out, but it will be hard to judge how much loss of control is due to the thicker cushier lining and how much is due to the softer footbed.

 

[Philpug]

My question is: what do they do? What is the theory/concept behind using them? They do seem to create more pressure on the inside edge as the gap under the arch is filled. But there's other ways to do that (tip more for example.)

Part if the job of the footbed is to position the foot in a neutral position helping adjust from pronation and supination.

I have read that some WC racers prefer not usuing a foodbed but that is in a case by case basis.

I still fall back to never say never and never say always, most or some is as far as I will go.

 

[tromano]

I underpronate, run in neutral shoes, and I do better without custom footbeds. I tried custom footbeds a while back and found them too rigid and confining to natural movements. For years I have skied with out inserts in intuition liners, which lets the bottom of the liner mold to the foot. Now with zip fits a simple off the shelf foot bed works great for me. I currently have the zipfit brand down under insoles in my ski boots.

 

[Muleski]

The most well known skier to me, who has never used a footbed for long {experimented with them, tested them in timing} and has always went back to none is Bode.
He also has a very rigid foot, and of course was wedged into a very, very tight shell. More so than one might imagine. At one point I think he wore an size 11.5, maybe a 12, sneaker and was in a 305mm Doberman. I think they labeled that a 25.5.

So nothing for me, or mere mortals to probably draw from that. My experience is that a footbed is good for me....but I’m very neutral in my stance and off the shelf works fine. I have a A LINE. In my boots and a lot of my footwear.

I’ve had very custom work done for myself and my family over the years and I think I’d say “the jury is out.” But....our feet seem pretty average. No big issues.

Biggest issue, transition seemed to be going from months in flip flops to getting into a tight plug during training blocks.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

This sounds like crazy talk to me. But taking out your footbeds and trying it yourself is free, so you might as well go for it.

 

[Steve]

Well @Erik Timmerman it's not crazy talk of a Tom Gellie and @tromano both say it!

I'll definitely be trying this. I have the stock Fischer footbeds in my Zipfits now, the next time the mountain is open I'm skiing this way.

Free the arches, free the soul!

 

[Vcize]

It's a non-starter for me. I have high arches and if I take out my footbeds my feet cramp up so badly that I have to sit down midway through the run and take my boots off.

 

[raytseng]

This seems to be a posit here that there are only two possible footbeds in the world , the stock sheet of floppy flat foam insole (or none), and a rock solid fully posted or carbonfiber stiff footbed molded to your arch.
i think that there are a whole range of custom footbeds now with varying amount of flex. The sidas custom one the shop formed for me is not posted so it has some flex in the arch. additionally the bootboard in my particular fisher boots is rubberized meant for bigmtn not racing, and has some give as well.
Even off the shelf insoles for your shoes there's a whole range of flex and support and give to allow some movement if that's what will work better for you

 

[Ken_R]

There is some new experimentation, particularly by Tom Gellie, with skiing without custom footbeds, and it being better. That without arch support and other things that to a certain degree limit range of motion of the foot, people ski better.

I've played with taking out my foot beds, both standing on them alone vs. standing on the floor without them and having them in my boots and taking them out. I put back in the stock footbeds that came with the boots and tried those.

I feel like I have more control without the custom footbeds. Particularly fore/aft. The arch support seems to block the movements of the subtalar joint. My foot beds were made by Greg Hoffman years ago, and checked by Nick Blaylock last year.

I will experiment with this on snow soon.

My question is: what do they do? What is the theory/concept behind using them? They do seem to create more pressure on the inside edge as the gap under the arch is filled. But there's other ways to do that (tip more for example.)

We all take for granted that custom footbeds are needed by most skiers. Conventional wisdom.

With the green light to challenge this given to me by Gellie, I now open the conversation to the actual advantages, not assumed advantages.

I have skied without a footbed by "accident" while on a tour. It actually felt much better than I thought but It is better with a proper footbed.

 

[ScotsSkier]

It's a non-starter for me. I have high arches and if I take out my footbeds my feet cramp up so badly that I have to sit down midway through the run and take my boots off.

Yup! been there, done that! In the early/mid 80s i was using Koflach foamed race boots. They ended up foaming multiple liners for me unsuccessfully with basically no foam getting through to the forefoot and they could never work out why. When I was in the original Salomon SX90 Equipe I had the same problem you mentioned. My foot would cramp up incredibly badly. In fact for a while during the 80s I had so many boot/foot issues, I was reducing my skiing because it was too painful with foot cramp (or losing big toenails as a result of cramming my foot into a too small Dynafit 3F race boot - but that's another story! ). When I was in Val D'Isere in 1987, one of the guides pointed me to Pat Zimmer who was doing custom Sidas footbeds (which I had never heard of before). So he made a set for me and when he took them out of the mold he shook his head and said something must be wrong because when he held them sole to sole there was about 3-4 inches between the arches! But, hey lets try them against my foot before we start again. And Bingo! they fitted perfectly! Turns out I had a very high arch/instep and, because a standard foot bed my foot was collapsing in the boot and cramping (and why they could not get foam through to the forefoot in the liner). Huge difference for me!. These original ones were some sort of blue fairly rigid plastic material, non posted.

Since then i have had another couple of pairs made over the years but kept going back to the originals. In fact they have been in all my plugs for the last 7-8 years. Unfortunately they are now starting to crack up a bit (can't really complain as they must have well over 1000 days on them at least and are now >30 years old!) so I bit the bullet and had a new set made a couple of weeks ago. I think they are Sidas IIRC and these are posted so will see how they work out. But, for me, they are not optional. with a standard footbed my foot collapses too much. YMMV.

 

[Bad Bob]

Really good skiers, like Bode will understandably go through 'the agony of de feet' to find that extra .01 seconds and which is very understandable. Watched Spider Sabich cry getting into his boots close to 50 years ago, a very timed honored approach to performance. If you are reaching for the stratosphere of performance in your skiing, try it; it might only cost you money.
Reality says I will never ski in the movies again. Boot comfort will extend skiing days. From experience custom footbeds increase comfort. Do custom footbeds enhance the comfort and performance in the new rear entry bots?

 

[tromano]

Part if the job of the footbed is to position the foot in a neutral position helping adjust from pronation and supination.

I have read that some WC racers prefer not usuing a foodbed but that is in a case by case basis.

I still fall back to never say never and never say always, most or some is as far as I will go.

I think the most important words in this thread are "case by case basis".

 

[Scruffy]

This is really a foot by foot case, there are so many variables in human feet.

David McPhail was on to this about 20 years ago, not many listened to him,--thought it was crazy talk. Recently we've seen it in racing and now Tom G seems to be on it--go figure. I've taken my custom foots beds out about five years ago and never looked back, but my feet have no special issues that necessitate correction. I use a completely flat footbed.

One of the benefits for me is: It allows my foot to pronate naturally from the transition to top of turn as weight shifts fore from aft at bottom of turn--foot beds can block pronation. Pronating the foot causes it to evert, thus increasing edging angle.

 

[geepers]

There is some new experimentation, particularly by Tom Gellie, with skiing without custom footbeds, and it being better. That without arch support and other things that to a certain degree limit range of motion of the foot, people ski better.

I've played with taking out my foot beds, both standing on them alone vs. standing on the floor without them and having them in my boots and taking them out. I put back in the stock footbeds that came with the boots and tried those.

I feel like I have more control without the custom footbeds. Particularly fore/aft. The arch support seems to block the movements of the subtalar joint. My foot beds were made by Greg Hoffman years ago, and checked by Nick Blaylock last year.

I will experiment with this on snow soon.

My question is: what do they do? What is the theory/concept behind using them? They do seem to create more pressure on the inside edge as the gap under the arch is filled. But there's other ways to do that (tip more for example.)

We all take for granted that custom footbeds are needed by most skiers. Conventional wisdom.

With the green light to challenge this given to me by Gellie, I now open the conversation to the actual advantages, not assumed advantages.

Think there's a point to add here. Tom Gellie works on foot and ankle strength, and specifically on the 3 arches in the feet. Has vids on relevant exercises.

In modern life many of us spend much less time walking on unsupported feet to keep the foot fit.

I suspect that without arch fitness it's going to be a long day in boots without footbeds. In my case it's going to get painful as well.

Be interested to hear how it works out.

 

[sky_chicken]

I'm following this thread with great interest. I'm an overpronator and have fancy custom printed insoles for my boots. At the time it helped get more contact on the inside edge of the ski. Now, I'm not sure. For many years of running despite my protestations shoe stores always try to put me into motion control shoes with insoles, and I've found by far the best option is plain old neutral shoes.

One thing that always gets me with boot fitting is what is it supposed to feel like? I've seen some good boot fitters and my boots are mostly comfortable, but I'm never sure if I'm talking the same language as the boot fitter. It's just so difficult to put into words what's happening with my feet. I'm sure that's no revelation to anyone here.

 

[Steve]

@geepers yes he does have a series of arch exercises. When I started skiing I used to get arch cramping all the time, anything difficult, bumps, etc. my feet would be screaming on the lift line. I think it was mostly due to trying to grab the snow with my feet in fear.

I did exercises for those tiny muscles at the bottom of my foot. It's going to be very interesting to see if my feet cramp up without the arch support. If so that day is probably done without a lodge to go into. Booting up at the car is one thing. Taking out my liners and switching footbeds outside is probably not going to be something I do.

Based on what it feels like on the ground barefoot, I'm not worried.

I don't think i need the footbeds to hold me up. My arches aren't high, my feet don't roll in standing flat. The feel of something firm in my arch is not something I generally like.

I think someone with a high arch would need a footbed more.

 

[ScottB]

I have skied without footbeds all my life. Got an off the shelf pair about 5 years ago and like them. They make my boots fit snugger. That is all I can really tell. I did get on a footbed machine at a ski show. I could see myself pronate, my ankle rolled a little as I did a squat. On a footbed with a shim on oneside it stopped. I bought them and used them. I asked how this will affect my skiing and the guy gave me an honest answer I think. He said at high speed I will be more stable, and my boots don't have to be as tight to achieve this.

 

[Tony S]

For many years of running despite my protestations shoe stores always try to put me into motion control shoes with insoles, and I've found by far the best option is plain old neutral shoes.

Ditto. Good to hear. In my case, though, it only works with supportive insoles.

With ski boots, if I stand in the shells sans liner, on a stock footbed, my ankles hit the shells on one side and there is a huge gap on the other.