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Custom footbeds, take 'em out?

Wendy

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Ditto. Good to hear. In my case, though, it only works with supportive insoles.

With ski boots, if I stand in the shells sans liner, on a stock footbed, my ankles hit the shells on one side and there is a huge gap on the other. :nono:
I have this same issue.
In running shoes, I can run OK with a neutral shoe, but I feel better on longer runs in a more supportive shoe for pronators. Interestingly, I feel good running in those minimalist FiveFingers which mimic barefoot running.
The flexibility of a running shoe compared to a ski boot probably allows my foot to adjust as its flexed and the FiveFingers allows my toes to spread which supports my foot.
In a skate ski boot (more rigid that a running shoe but not quite as stiff-soled as an alpine boot) I also need some arch support or my foot roles towards the inside on the glide.

I do wonder if those with super strong feet (rock climbers, dancers, gymnasts, etc) can do without supportive insoles in athletic footwear.
 

Aquila

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Ditto. Good to hear. In my case, though, it only works with supportive insoles.

With ski boots, if I stand in the shells sans liner, on a stock footbed, my ankles hit the shells on one side and there is a huge gap on the other. :nono:

Mmm yes, I have the most abysmal arch pain in ski boots without insoles, and basically end up with a whole bunch of painful pressure points and strain that I do not have with my custom insoles. But I'm also interested in the idea of strengthening one's feet so your feet can better support themselves (one of my goals now that I'm in the off-season is to do some work to strengthen the arches in my feet, as well as a lot more work with ankle strengthening and stability).

I can see how skiing without a highly supportive shaped insole could be beneficial for some people, despite the custom insole route typically being recommended to everyone. I'll be interested to see if this thread progresses and more people try it out. I do think it'll end up being only on a case-by-case basis though. I probably won't try it myself as I have enough pre existing ankle issues (including torn ligaments and compressed nerves, and of course overpronation) to find the custom insoles extremely useful, for me personally!

As an aside, last summer I asked my boot fitter if they could make a custom insole for my ice skating boots as well. They were happy to do so (turns out it is not the first time they have had this request) and commented that the ice skating insole would be more flexible/less stiff than my skiing insole, because ice skating requires more movement of the foot, somewhere in between skiing and walking/running. I thought it was an interesting comment.
 

Scruffy

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I do wonder if those with super strong feet (rock climbers, dancers, gymnasts, etc) can do without supportive insoles in athletic footwear.

Yes. Checkout Dr. Emily Splichal's Barefoot Strong.

Having footwear/ski boots that allow toes to spread naturally is part of accessing all of one's foot's ability, so it's no wonder your feet are happy running in Five Fingers, even though you normally need more support.
 

Tony S

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Having footwear/ski boots that allow toes to spread naturally is part of accessing all of one's foot's ability
This makes total sense.
.
Except.
.
.
.
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I'll bet I'm not alone in saying that I've never had a pair of alpine boots that allowed this - not even when they were two sizes too big.
 

Scruffy

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This makes total sense.
.
Except.
.
.
.
.
I'll bet I'm not alone in saying that I've never had a pair of alpine boots that allowed this - not even when they were two sizes too big.

You would win that bet; you are not alone. When I shop for a new boots, a roomy toe box is on the list of must haves, and I have narrow feet. When the boot fitter bakes the boot/liner, I insist on putting toe separators between my toes, and or a toe cap.
 
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Steve

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I’ve really come to believe that boot fitting is not a science. It’s an art. I’ve also come to believe that much of conventional wisdom is not true.
 

Tony S

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I really come to believe that boot fitting is not a science. It’s an art. I’ve also come to believe that much of conventional wisdom is not true.
You should post video of your skiing with and then without the footbed. Same day, same slope.
 

Uncle-A

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I have tried the three different set ups.
1. No insert, flat bottom liner in my Richlie Flexing Comp which is a 98 last but my foot is 109 left and a 111 right. It was the only way I could stay in the boot all day.
2. Manufacturers foot bed in my Technica 10.2 boot when new. As the boot started to break-in they didn't perform as I thought they should.
3. Swap out the manufacturer foot beds with my favorite foot beds that are silicone, cork, and leather top foot beds that conform to the bottom of your feet. The boot skied as I thought it should. But that wasn't good enough for me, I swapped back to the manufacturer foot beds and skied a couple of days. The results were not good, it reinforced the fact that I wanted and needed my favorite foot beds. Before the season ended early I returned to my favorite foot beds and the boot is back to the fit I want. I see no need to go with out my favorite foot beds as long as the boot is broken in.
 
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Steve

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You should post video of your skiing with and then without the footbed. Same day, same slope.

Ha, Not a chance. But it would be fun if someone else video'd me and posted it here for unsolicited MA.
 

Wendy

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A bootfitter told me once that he believed many skiers would ski better if they didn't have posted or highly supportive footbeds. He believed that the posted bed inhibited proper articulation. He also believed in making sure toes weren't squeezed laterally because the toe spread was necessary for proper balance. Seems to align with Dr. Emily Splichal as quoted by @Scruffy, but I wonder what the difference is between balancing in a rigid boot versus a flexible shoe.
 
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Steve

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With ski boots, if I stand in the shells sans liner, on a stock footbed, my ankles hit the shells on one side and there is a huge gap on the other. :nono:

I just tried this and my footbeds do not move my ankles in or out.

Yes. Checkout Dr. Emily Splichal's Barefoot Strong.

The "short foot" woman. This is probably related.
 
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A bootfitter told me once that he believed many skiers would ski better if they didn't have posted or highly supportive footbeds. He believed that the posted bed inhibited proper articulation. He also believed in making sure toes weren't squeezed laterally because the toe spread was necessary for proper balance

Cool. Who was this?

I think conventional wisdom is the issue here. Footbeds are necessary for many people for many reasons, but the blind following of everyone needs one, or more specifically that a supported arch and rigid platform is good for everyone.
 

Aquila

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This makes total sense.
.
Except.
.
.
.
.
I'll bet I'm not alone in saying that I've never had a pair of alpine boots that allowed this - not even when they were two sizes too big.
Ahh that is one thing I do like about my current ski boots. They're a bit too wide in the heel/ankle for me (98mm stated last, just dumb feet) but I do have room to spread my toes, which is nice. At some point I want narrower boots but I am concerned I'll end up with crushed toes. I find it very painful to have my toes squeezed laterally for long periods of time. I guess that is what heat moulding and grinding is for.
 

Philpug

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I’ve really come to believe that boot fitting is not a science. It’s an art. I’ve also come to believe that much of conventional wisdom is not true.
You spelled "Ski Instruction" wrong.;)
 

cantunamunch

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Ditto. Good to hear. In my case, though, it only works with supportive insoles.

With ski boots, if I stand in the shells sans liner, on a stock footbed, my ankles hit the shells on one side and there is a huge gap on the other. :nono:

How neutral are you in your classic stride boots?
 

Noodler

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I just tried this and my footbeds do not move my ankles in or out.

This starts getting into whether the footbed is corrective or merely accommodating. Over the years, my belief has also veered toward the bias to just accommodate the foot and only go corrective if the foot has some serious problems that require the added support to avoid pain or injury. I now ski using Sidas footbeds without posting.

Also note, you have to be careful when researching the info on footbeds because most of it has not been done with hard shell ski boots in mind. The game definitely changes in a ski boot as compared to flexible footwear (and I think gait theory doesn't really apply when it comes to skiing).
 

cantunamunch

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Also note, you have to be careful when researching the info on footbeds because most of it has not been done with hard shell ski boots in mind. The game definitely changes in a ski boot as compared to flexible footwear (and I think gait theory doesn't really apply when it comes to skiing).

...if we accept, prima facie, that telemark is just plain weird and system-nordic is only half as weird as that.
 

4ster

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I have skied with custom footbeds since they became a thing, so 40+ years. in the beginning we would comment that if we got to the ski hill without our “Skithotics” we may as well just go back home and get them.
I am pretty pronated so they definitely make a big difference for me as far as getting neutral in the boot. About a decade ago at the recommendation of HH I switched from a relatively stiff cork footbed to a softer more flexible design that allows better articulation. I am on my second or third set of these and if nothing else I find my feet to be happier with the softer more flexible type.
It has been so long since I have skied without custom footbeds but I suppose it may be worth a try just for experimentations sake.

Here is a set of cork we never molded...
EFA5E846-B635-45D0-9C5F-53077D49DD5A.jpeg
 

Average Joe

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A custom footbed is part of a fitting a custom boot. It can help correct, and it can adapt.

Since no two feet are the same, there cannot be a final word on the subject, be it Bode Miller or your local bootfitter. My personal choice should have no influence on the next skier.

By far the most important element is having a really qualified bootfitter evaluate,recommend, and fit. And not be afraid to drive or travel long distances (ahem, within current pandemic restrictions, of course) to get it right.

Some allow ankle mobility, some less so. I'm a convert to the soft custom footbed, one that allows ankle movement inside the boot. Locking up the foot with a solid or hard footbed is counterintuitive, balance and strength are enhanced by natural movements and joint mobility.

At some point about 40-50 years ago, pronation became a vulgar slur, and podiatrists and then boot fitters set out to defeat their enemy with solid foam and plastics. Thanks to some experienced and influential people we're moving back to a more middle ground common sense approach.
 

cantunamunch

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I'll definitely be trying this. I have the stock Fischer footbeds in my Zipfits now, the next time the mountain is open I'm skiing this way.

Free the arches, free the soul!

Let us know how it works out? If you were reading David MacPhail, he was at one point also a fan of nubbly (but not supportive/corrective!) underfoot surfaces for more intense feedback.
 

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