• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Cut proof speed suits

Zski

Booting up
Instructor
Joined
Dec 1, 2017
Posts
23
Location
Lake Placid, NY area
this past spring we had a race in the East where a u16 lost a ski and then fell on the edge deeply cutting his leg. Thankfully the coaches quickly put multiple belts on his leg saving the boys life.

FIS has passed recent new rules making the speed suits less aerodynamic but likely more likely to be cut. My take is as usual fis totally missed their mark and need to address making speed suits more cut resistant which is much more of a danger than suit being too aero.

Thoughts?
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,498
Location
Slovenia, Europe
@Zski I don't think FIS missed the point ;) Thing is, more aero suit makes it also easier to slide on snow. So when you crash it's much harder to stop. Consider number of crashes where skiers slide on snow, and number of crashes that skiers cut themself on ski edge, and you get the point where's priority ;)
 

hbear

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Posts
890
Just a cut suit underlayer would work. (Don’t need a full outer suit) As posted POC and others make them. Similar to the ones used by hockey players.
I believe there is some metal thread built in. Can’t really tell when picking it up, it’s quite well built and very flexible.

Our question as parents is when does one seriously start to look at them. Obvious answer is as soon as possible, but it’s not that simple (similar to mouth guards).
 

sparty

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Posts
1,019
So how cut proof is a cut proof suit, and what happens when patrol or EMTs try to cut it to get to an injury? I'm assuming that question has been answered if speed skating suits are made of such stuff, but it might be something to consider making sure your local first responders are trained on that possibility.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
I can't. All I have seen is POC. The fibre is Dyneema, and while its allegedly the strongest fibre produced, I bet it can be cut by an EMT, or ER.
My son has a number of athletes who are full comp'd by POC, and who were given the cut suit bottoms and tops to try. None of them stuck with them. These were U16 and FIS skiers.

I have been around a LOT of ski races as a competitor, coach, official and parent. USSA races with 6 year olds to the WC. Maybe a couple of thousand? I really struggle to think of the cuts that I have seen. The last for me was Bode's at the 2015 FIS Worlds at Beaver Creek. Not close to life threatening. I fully realize that the crash that is referenced in the thread was a bad one, and was life threatening. I've sadly seen three athletes die on the hill as a result of severed femoral arteries. But not as a result of cuts. I have seen quite a few minor lower leg cuts.

I don't know about this one. I agree 100% with Primoz about FIS's focus with respect to suits. It's not cuts. I have also, BTW seen countless broken noses and a lot of blood form teeth getting knocked out in SL, while not wearing a chin bar.

Maybe somebody else has some idea of the incidence of cut injuries in the sport. I just called somebody who would probably have access to the data if USSA had it. She didn't have any idea, and doubt that they would either. I'm all for managing risk, but some risks have such rare occurrences that trying to mitigate them, effectively {including cost} is tough.

I wonder if this is one. I would bet the farm that nobody is going to be mandating cut suits.....particularly if they are made by ONE source. POC is very effective at creating product and then creating demand and "need to protect my kid." Great at it. Their lineup is really great.

I may be missing the boat on this one.
 

Ross Biff

The older I get, the faster I was....
Skier
Joined
Jul 11, 2018
Posts
223
@Zski I don't think FIS missed the point ;) Thing is, more aero suit makes it also easier to slide on snow. So when you crash it's much harder to stop. Consider number of crashes where skiers slide on snow, and number of crashes that skiers cut themself on ski edge, and you get the point where's priority ;)
I don't know if I was just lucky or not but I had a nasty fall in a Masters SL a few seasons ago and landed hard on my ski directly on the thigh padding in my suit...no cuts but I had difficulty walking for a few days and huge bruising. I have, however, cut a borrowed suit, again without cutting myself...THAT one was just dumb luck which can't be relied upon. I'm interested why the racers supplied with the POC cut suits f.o.c. didn't continue wearing them.
 

Jason Kurth

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Jan 27, 2018
Posts
207
also interested in opinions on the cut suits and what the problem was. not flexible enough maybe?
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,357
I can't. All I have seen is POC. The fibre is Dyneema, and while its allegedly the strongest fibre produced, I bet it can be cut by an EMT, or ER.
My son has a number of athletes who are full comp'd by POC, and who were given the cut suit bottoms and tops to try. None of them stuck with them. These were U16 and FIS skiers.

I have been around a LOT of ski races as a competitor, coach, official and parent. USSA races with 6 year olds to the WC. Maybe a couple of thousand? I really struggle to think of the cuts that I have seen. The last for me was Bode's at the 2015 FIS Worlds at Beaver Creek. Not close to life threatening. I fully realize that the crash that is referenced in the thread was a bad one, and was life threatening. I've sadly seen three athletes die on the hill as a result of severed femoral arteries. But not as a result of cuts. I have seen quite a few minor lower leg cuts.

I don't know about this one. I agree 100% with Primoz about FIS's focus with respect to suits. It's not cuts. I have also, BTW seen countless broken noses and a lot of blood form teeth getting knocked out in SL, while not wearing a chin bar.

Maybe somebody else has some idea of the incidence of cut injuries in the sport. I just called somebody who would probably have access to the data if USSA had it. She didn't have any idea, and doubt that they would either. I'm all for managing risk, but some risks have such rare occurrences that trying to mitigate them, effectively {including cost} is tough.

I wonder if this is one. I would bet the farm that nobody is going to be mandating cut suits.....particularly if they are made by ONE source. POC is very effective at creating product and then creating demand and "need to protect my kid." Great at it. Their lineup is really great.

I may be missing the boat on this one.

The talk last spring was that with the ceramic edgers people are using now, skis are sharper than they have ever been and this could be a growing problem.
 

Magi

Instructor
Instructor
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Posts
404
Location
Winter Park, Colorado
This thread inspired me to research what "cut resistance" means - so here's a an article I found, and the infographic that came out of it.

I imagine the American (ASTM ANSI) standard would be more appropriate for skis (single catastrophic cut vs repeated abrasion).
I'm also trying to get a handle on how a ski would correspond to the ASTM standard (less sharp than a razor blade, but a kilo or two of force on a razor blade doesn't seem like much - sooo...).

Cut-resistant-info-graphic2_1.gif
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
A few thoughts.

One is there has always been a top down trickle on all sorts of race equipment. For example, back protectors were very rare, even at say the NorAm level, then the guys on the WC started to use them. Boom. The following summer our son came back from Chile with three different ones. That was about 15 years ago? Now look at them. And all of the armour.

The basic nylon stealth top, made by Spyder evolved into many more “sturdy” upper body protectors. I can’t recall when I first saw a pair of forearm guards being used in GS, but I can absolutely recall the Slytech guys saying that they were going to sell a TON, and very high margins, but getting them on the arms of the right racers. And so it’s evolved. I am blown away by the fact that it seems like every U10 “needs” them. I don’t recall a lot of forearm injuries or bad bruises.

From what I have heard, with respect to the one “cut suit” out there, many of the “kids” provided with them were in the mode of “Why do I need this? Who on the WC is using it?” Amlong with it being another layer, which frankly would be more restrictive regardless of the material. Makes my suits tighter, makes my back protector feel different. And I think that many thought If they risked a cut, it would be around the boot top. All you have to do is look at some beaten up suits used by FIS kids to train...and the lower legs are the area most trashed.

So I think there is just skepticism of the need, and for most there is cost and availability. Does not mean that they do not make sense.

When I first got into this at a high level in the 70’s, you only wore a helmet to race in DH {of course there was no SG yet}. And in those days before breakaway gates, the one piece suit was just beginning to arrive...for DH. Some teams had lightly padded sweaters, and then the padded pants evolved later on.

Ceramic edgers is interesting. At the older ages and higher levels, they have been around for years. We bought our first SnowGlide and first Trione about 12-14 years ago, I think. I didn’t see a lot of cuts, or an increase.

Is it because every U10 and 400 point USSA skier now has skis tuned using an edger? And that bigger group, that bigger slice of the racing pyramid, is seeing more of these injuries? I don’t know.

I do see more kids, younger ones, slicing open hands and fingers on sharp skis, and coaches carrying a big more in terms of first aid supplies. But had not thought of it until now.

If they become mandated at the top, we will probably see them trickle down, regardless of cost. And we’ll hear those complaints.

I don’t think the sport will let one manufacturer push this, but they are masters at creating demand for their “stuff” regardless of price.

Bet we’ll see data begin to be collected and compiled to see how big an issue it is or is not.

If my child or a friend were badly injured I would likely have much stronger feelings.
 

Ross Biff

The older I get, the faster I was....
Skier
Joined
Jul 11, 2018
Posts
223
The trickle- down effect is a valid point. Witness the use of neck braces in MTB racing once pros began using them. I think the visibility of these items has an impact on the increased use as well. You can see a back brace under a suit. You can see extra padding under unpadded suits. You can see forearm guards. Pretty hard to see a cut suit under a regular suit. Let's keep an eye out for strategically placed logo's to let the younger crowd know their favorite racer is wearing one!
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,498
Location
Slovenia, Europe
Another thing to consider, at least for DH/SG racing, and with regard I have absolutely zero idea about this (or any other) cut resistant material. FIS has rule about how air tight suits can be. And that includes everything under suits and above skin. So if this material is dense, which I would image it would need to be if it would wanted to be cut resistant, and not being metal mesh like butchers have for their gloves and aprons, I would imagine you would have some issues passing that test. But as I said, I have absolutely no info on this material, so maybe that's not an issue at all.
 

Average Joe

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Posts
555
Dyneema was developed and used as a laminate sailcloth for the 1992 Americas Cup, named Cuban Fiber, after the syndicate that paid to complete its development, America3 (aka America Cubed). Unlike Kevlar, it did not lose strength from repetitive creasing and folding, or UV exposure. As a yarn it is now used in standing rigging and ropes, and many other applications where a flexible non stretch fiber is needed.
It can be cut with heavy duty high quality shears (they cost $40 and up and are used by riggers and sailmakers).
Woven into a speed suit fabric in sufficient quantity to prevent injury would, at some point, reduce the stretch of the fabric. That may be why some of the early incarnations are not being worn by the athletes.
However a quick check finds that a number of Tour de France riders are using stretch garments reinforced with dyneema, so development is ongoing at the top levels.
In its sailcloth form, pure dyneema is very slippery. As a yarn, woven into a garment, I'm sure it can be integrated to satisfy the FIS requirements - but the skier will probably sacrifice comfort. As Muleski said, back protectors are now a standard......
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,644
Location
PNW aka SEA
Interesting... The dyneema fibers must not be contiguous since there's pretty much zero elasticity.
 

Jason Kurth

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Jan 27, 2018
Posts
207
The poc cut suits don't have the material everywhere, just in areas most likely to be hit (though it looks like the shirt is the majority of it). I was messaging POC about sizing and they said to go up if between two sizes since there is not a lot of elasticity to them.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Zski

Zski

Booting up
Instructor
Joined
Dec 1, 2017
Posts
23
Location
Lake Placid, NY area
I’ve heard there is a training short made with the cut resistant material which is pretty tight so it could potentially even be raced in for SL

My take is that this is much more likely to get cut in SL as the speeds are slowing making it more likely you could fail on a ski that released.

I got a razor tune last season and cut my hands deeply a couple times which had never happened to me tuning before so that might be a contributor.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top