Cut proof speed suits

[Zski]

My wife told me that our coaches are requiring the kids to train in this short this yr at least for SL. They haven’t come in yet fr9m the teams order. Will post my thoughts when we get them

https://www.syncperformance.com/products/session-race-short

 

[oldschoolskier]

I did work and researched Dyneema in the mid 90’s, along with Kevlar for cut and puncture resistance when I was looking to produce protective clothing for Fencing (puncture and cut proof). Dyneema is a form of polyester pure and simple, though as a treated fiber does have better strength and wear characteristics.

Kevlar was used originally (I have a Kevlar fencing under jacket and it is a lot stiffer and heavier than the Dyneema ones)

Bullet/knife proof vest are made differently and in most cases considered a one time use as how they function is different (I spent a fair time at manufacturers facilities comparing manufacturing methods and testing). In sport we want flexibility and reusability.

How the fabric works is in is how it’s made (if I remember correctly) it’s a triple circular stitch weave on a very expensive complex weaving machine (million dollar plus).

Do these fabrics work, a resounding yes, they will protect you from the preventable injuries. A Bodie accident, it would have reduced the injury substantially though not necessarily eliminated it. Think difference between minor cut and life threatening cut. Remember these fabrics are cut/puncture resistant, not cut/puncture proof.

If you are looking for no cut, the Kevlar/resin soaked bullet/knife proof is the way to go, good luck in getting the range of motion needed.

The big difference between the two (aside from how the fabric is made) is the number of layers used. In sports it’s one layer, in bullet/knife proof it’s many layers.

As a speed suit material could be done, however IMHO it won’t be the fastest suit so wear it as an approved under garment in certain locations to protect the vital areas.

I still have my research buried in boxes somewhere (much to my wife’s dismay).

As a side note a nylon/polyester based padded protector is used in hockey to protect the goalies throats from being slit by skates.

Final note; do not wash with any harsh cleaners, mild soap and water with a gentle wash, drip dry is ussually the best method. Wash and dry it wrong there goes the protection as the fiber fails. Read the wash instructions.

 

[BGreen]

Let me put a slightly finer point on what a few people are trying to be polite about: There are a lot of ways to get very hurt ski racing and this ranks pretty low on the list of things I worry about. Yes, it has happened a couple times, and yes a few parents are learning how to tune skis, largely due to the low cost of ceramic edgers. I anointed a few pairs of skis with the blood of the coach last season when an ungloved hand brushed and edged wrong. The number of kids who show up with dull edges far out number kids with sharp edges.

I worry about snow conditions, I worry about dangerous course sets (saw two at a single race last season), I worry about concussions, kids going through panels, kids going into nets, on-hill collisions, frostbite, fatigue. A ski edge cutting a major artery probably wouldn’t make the top 50.

 

[Zski]

If you think about it it’s much more likely to have a cut situation in training where the reps are higher and more potential for fatigue

Also in training it would be much more dangerous if it happened as the hill is not full of coaches and officials which could respond quickly should a cut happen

Given that the training shorts seem like a wise investment in protection

 

[hbear]

Shorts are typically not for “protection” but to keep the legs and butts warm compared to suit only. Don’t underestimate the power of a layer between you butt and the chairlift!

We rarely see suit only training here (always shorts or pants) due to the cold (more often for speed training of course). Coaches here like shorts for SL as it’s not as bulky as using shinners on top of pants. However when it’s cold here (-20*C and lower) all bets are off and you wear what you need to stay warm.

 

[Muleski]

Read this.......right on topic.

Kelly Brush Foundation taking the lead on pushing for every coach to carry a cut kit in their pack. Other interesting details related to the accident, which was absolutely horrific.

https://racerex.com/stop-the-bleed/

 

[Zski]

Read this.......right on topic.

Kelly Brush Foundation taking the lead on pushing for every coach to carry a cut kit in their pack. Other interesting betas related to the accident, which was absolutely horrific.

https://racerex.com/stop-the-bleed/

I saw that the other day. Pat is my kids coach and my Wife was the gatekeeper who offered her belt to the coaches to use to cut off the blood flow.

I was standing at the finish and saw the whole thing maybe 15 Gates from the finish. It was a unusual fall as normally if you lose a ski it goes off to the side in SL it was warm and sunny and the course was rutted and he had a heel release but tried to keep going so he lost the ski with it pointed straight down the fall line then fell on it. It didn’t seem like anything bad until you saw the blood. It was definately a freak accident but these skis are so sharp.

 

[Marker]

W

I did work and researched Dyneema in the mid 90’s, along with Kevlar for cut and puncture resistance when I was looking to produce protective clothing for Fencing (puncture and cut proof). Dyneema is a form of polyester pure and simple, though as a treated fiber does have better strength and wear characteristics.

Kevlar was used originally (I have a Kevlar fencing under jacket and it is a lot stiffer and heavier than the Dyneema ones)

Bullet/knife proof vest are made differently and in most cases considered a one time use as how they function is different (I spent a fair time at manufacturers facilities comparing manufacturing methods and testing). In sport we want flexibility and reusability.

How the fabric works is in is how it’s made (if I remember correctly) it’s a triple circular stitch weave on a very expensive complex weaving machine (million dollar plus).

Do these fabrics work, a resounding yes, they will protect you from the preventable injuries. A Bodie accident, it would have reduced the injury substantially though not necessarily eliminated it. Think difference between minor cut and life threatening cut. Remember these fabrics are cut/puncture resistant, not cut/puncture proof.

If you are looking for no cut, the Kevlar/resin soaked bullet/knife proof is the way to go, good luck in getting the range of motion needed.

The big difference between the two (aside from how the fabric is made) is the number of layers used. In sports it’s one layer, in bullet/knife proof it’s many layers.

As a speed suit material could be done, however IMHO it won’t be the fastest suit so wear it as an approved under garment in certain locations to protect the vital areas.

I still have my research buried in boxes somewhere (much to my wife’s dismay).

As a side note a nylon/polyester based padded protector is used in hockey to protect the goalies throats from being slit by skates.

Final note; do not wash with any harsh cleaners, mild soap and water with a gentle wash, drip dry is ussually the best method. Wash and dry it wrong there goes the protection as the fiber fails. Read the wash instructions.

I work for that company that manufactures Kevlar, which is spun from fuming sulfuric acid. Dynemma is spun from ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene, essentially the same polymer used in ptex ski bases. This stuff is so high in MW that it requires special processes to convert it into useable forms, sintering for ski bases and powerful solvents for gel spinning of fiber. One engineer I worked with in the past developed billets of UHMW PE for use in joints for hip and knee replacement. The material science behind these materials is fascinating. Kevlar has strength potential that has not yet been realized due to it's high crystallinity, but this makes it more temperature resistance than Dynemma. As you point out, the weave of both of their fabrics contributes substantially to their cut and projectile resistance.

When Bode cut his leg, I did wonder how common this was. It was terrible to read about that youth at Whiteface.

 

[Zski]

W

I work for that company that manufactures Kevlar, which is spun from fuming sulfuric acid. Dynemma is spun from ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene, essentially the same polymer used in ptex ski bases. This stuff is so high in MW that it requires special processes to convert it into useable forms, sintering for ski bases and powerful solvents for gel spinning of fiber. One engineer I worked with in the past developed billets of UHMW PE for use in joints for hip and knee replacement. The material science behind these materials is fascinating. Kevlar has strength potential that has not yet been realized due to it's high crystallinity, but this makes it more temperature resistance than Dynemma. As you point out, the weave of both of their fabrics contributes substantially to their cut and projectile resistance.

When Bode cut his leg, I did wonder how common this was. It was terrible to read about that youth at Whiteface.

Which one was res better as far as surviving being washed repeatedly?

Do these fabrics have stretch properties?

 

[Marker]

Which one was res better as far as surviving being washed repeatedly?

Do these fabrics have stretch properties?

The stretch is dictated by the weave, not the fibers themselves which do not stretch appreciably. I suspect that the Dynemma resists washing better being hydrophobic polyethylene as long as you avoid high temperatures.

 

[Burton]

Resurfacing this thread because in the last couple of years there has been a big increase in focus on lacerations (at least in New England) with a few more scary incidents and the roll out of Stop the Bleed training and kits for coaches. Last season, I was hearing of incidents on about a monthly basis. Concurrently, there are now more companies offering cut resistant baselayers since this thread was started. In addition to POC, there's Base 360, Sync, Vix Protection (maybe?) and Reliable Racing (maybe?). Any others? As a coach and parent who tunes with a disk grinder, I'm looking for feedback on brands, as these layers can be a pretty big investment for growing kids and I've heard very mixed feedback on the POC and Base 360 offerings from kids, specifically that they're not very comfortable. I also know one girl I used to coach who was cut pretty badly through her POC baselayer, though presumably they prevented a more severe injury. So, do any of these brands stand out above the others?

Finally, have people had any second thoughts about the prevailing practice of training (especially SL) in race suits? I completely understand why it is done, but it seems it would be much easier to incorporate heavy duty protective layers into ski pants than a suit or baselayer. A lot of the close-call incidents have happened at races when there are coaches or gatekeepers nearby, and I worry more about training when there's a lot fewer people on the hill.

 

[Groomer61]

Resurfacing this thread because in the last couple of years there has been a big increase in focus on lacerations (at least in New England) with a few more scary incidents and the roll out of Stop the Bleed training and kits for coaches. Last season, I was hearing of incidents on about a monthly basis. Concurrently, there are now more companies offering cut resistant baselayers since this thread was started. In addition to POC, there's Base 360, Sync, Vix Protection (maybe?) and Reliable Racing (maybe?). Any others? As a coach and parent who tunes with a disk grinder, I'm looking for feedback on brands, as these layers can be a pretty big investment for growing kids and I've heard very mixed feedback on the POC and Base 360 offerings from kids, specifically that they're not very comfortable. I also know one girl I used to coach who was cut pretty badly through her POC baselayer, though presumably they prevented a more severe injury. So, do any of these brands stand out above the others?

Finally, have people had any second thoughts about the prevailing practice of training (especially SL) in race suits? I completely understand why it is done, but it seems it would be much easier to incorporate heavy duty protective layers into ski pants than a suit or baselayer. A lot of the close-call incidents have happened at races when there are coaches or gatekeepers nearby, and I worry more about training when there's a lot fewer people on the hill.

I know POC is introing a new line this coming season called Base Armor. They say it is 15x stronger than steel but is double the price of the old base layer

 

[Burton]

but is double the price of the old base layer

Thanks for the info. $500 for the leggings. Thumbs up to POC for making Sync look cheap! Ooof.

 

[oldschoolskier]

One of the things that I see in all sports is that as the protective equipment gets better, the injuries become more serious.

I believe this has to do with the lack of fear the better protection provides to mitigate most injuries, which allows individuals to reach to higher levels beyond what can be protected or the next level of injury.

As an easy example hockey and football brain injuries are now the norm, before it was broken bones and teeth. Basically you could walk onto a highway get hit by a truck bounced off to the shoulder get up and say is that all you got with the modern padding, unfortunately you don’t feel the brain injury.

Skiing (all sports) has gotten the same way.

Is there a good solution, not sure as we can’t turn back time, but it is something all sports should look at for the protection of the “Elite” or starting athletes. Better equipment mat not be the “best” long term solution.

 

[sparty]

One of the things that I see in all sports is that as the protective equipment gets better, the injuries become more serious.

I believe this has to do with the lack of fear the better protection provides to mitigate most injuries, which allows individuals to reach to higher levels beyond what can be protected or the next level of injury.
...

It's not just better protection, particularly in ski racing. Equipment, snow preparation and sports science (both as applied to technical, sports-specific skills and to strength & conditioning) are both far different now than they were 20 or 40 years ago. That results in higher speeds on the same courses, before you even consider whether or not racers are more likely to push the line because they're wearing modern helmets or not.

There is a well-documented element of competitors (well, all humans, really) adjusting their behavior to maintain the same level of perceived risk, but I'm not convinced that's as true at the ragged edge of world-class competition as it is in everyday life. I've never worked at the World Cup/NorAm level to know whether or not athletes will consider external safety factors and adjust their desired level of risk-taking or not. I'm pretty sure the U16/U19 athletes I work with do not.

 

[oldschoolskier]

It's not just better protection, particularly in ski racing. Equipment, snow preparation and sports science (both as applied to technical, sports-specific skills and to strength & conditioning) are both far different now than they were 20 or 40 years ago. That results in higher speeds on the same courses, before you even consider whether or not racers are more likely to push the line because they're wearing modern helmets or not.

There is a well-documented element of competitors (well, all humans, really) adjusting their behavior to maintain the same level of perceived risk, but I'm not convinced that's as true at the ragged edge of world-class competition as it is in everyday life. I've never worked at the World Cup/NorAm level to know whether or not athletes will consider external safety factors and adjust their desired level of risk-taking or not. I'm pretty sure the U16/U19 athletes I work with do not.

We humans just love to push limits and if it gets less painful, push harder. Endorphins are addictive.

 

[Jeffdag]

One of the athletes (U19) I coach has the vixprotection pants and loves them. The have full protection, no gaps and are supposed to be level 5 cut proof.
Thinking of getting them for my sons (U12's), then saw the Base360. They don't look as good but 1/2 the price.....
Anyone have experience with the Base360 products?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

One of the kids my daughter races with fell at Copper this fall and landed on his ski. He was wearing a Sync cut suit and somehow the ski cut through his suit and then sliced his hamstring to the bone. Coaches were on it with the "stop the bleed" stuff and several hours of surgery later, he is more or less OK. Makes me wonder about these suits though.

 

[oldschoolskier]

One of the kids my daughter races with fell at Copper this fall and landed on his ski. He was wearing a Sync cut suit and somehow the ski cut through his suit and then sliced his hamstring to the bone. Coaches were on it with the "stop the bleed" stuff and several hours of surgery later, he is more or less OK. Makes me wonder about these suits though.

Best wishes to him.

Unfortunately nothing is cut proof, extremely cut resistant maybe. I would say the questions that should be asked by the safety committee to ensure prevention of a repeat if possible are:

• New suit
• What brand
• Has it happened elsewhere
• What brand
• When was it manufactured
• How many hours of wear
• How was it cleaned
• How was it stored

And keeping those records in case it happens again.

As to your daughter, she is going to ski different as the hinter voice (it can happen to me) will be playing in the background. Ensure she stays safe and regains confidence during this stretch as the hinter voice plays nasty tricks and messes up a lot of athletes (some permanently). I’ve experienced this fencing when a close friend that introduced my wife and I took a blade in the lung and bruising the heart right in front of me (I saw the hit but didn’t see the blade enter or exit, no blood other than small drop). Messed me up for a while. In competitions everything screamed go for it, hinter voice whispered, you can get hurt/killed. I held back and lost until I learned to ignore it. Good sports physiologist may be able to help if needed if she can’t get past it on her own.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Hinter voice won't be a problem since she tore her ACL a few days later. But yeah, I had all those same thoughts as you which is why I asked his coach what brand of suit where it was cut and if it was a cut proof panel that got cut.