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Speeder

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In DH when coaches speak of "cutting off the line" what do they mean? Why wouldn't a racer ski the "cut off line" in training runs?
 

Doug Briggs

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I generally say 'straighten out your line' or 'tighten up your line' instead of 'cutting off the line', but I think we are talking the same thing. Being more direct from gate to gate and getting closer to the gate.

You do straighten out the line during training, but you do it in stages unless you are a rock star and/or know the course/hill well. The idea of training runs prior to a race is to obtain comfort and knowledge of the course to be safer and to permit you to go faster each run. During a training session, not the required training before a race, you would want to run the course looser rather than tighter to permit yourself to ramp up your speed comfortably.

Controlling you speed can be done with line, shedding clothing (coats and warm-ups for speed suit) and body position. Anytime you want to go faster you can tighten or adjust your line and become more aerodynamic. Sometimes tighter isn't faster but further up the hill is. Speed courses require maintenance of speed and it makes little sense to go direct at one gate if you have to toss them sideways for the next. Finding the right sized turns to match the hill and the set is important.

An example would be a chicane style set of turns in a DH. You might want to cross the rise line a bit higher than normal for the first gate allowing yourself vertical space for the chicane. You might also let your line run low exiting the chicane so that you end up with your apex of the first turn a little higher than the first gate and second apex a little lower than the gate.
 
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Speeder

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I generally say 'straighten out your line' or 'tighten up your line' instead of 'cutting off the line', but I think we are talking the same thing. Being more direct from gate to gate and getting closer to the gate.

You do straighten out the line during training, but you do it in stages unless you are a rock star and/or know the course/hill well. The idea of training runs prior to a race is to obtain comfort and knowledge of the course to be safer and to permit you to go faster each run. During a training session, not the required training before a race, you would want to run the course looser rather than tighter to permit yourself to ramp up your speed comfortably.

Controlling you speed can be done with line, shedding clothing (coats and warm-ups for speed suit) and body position. Anytime you want to go faster you can tighten or adjust your line and become more aerodynamic. Sometimes tighter isn't faster but further up the hill is. Speed courses require maintenance of speed and it makes little sense to go direct at one gate if you have to toss them sideways for the next. Finding the right sized turns to match the hill and the set is important.

An example would be a chicane style set of turns in a DH. You might want to cross the rise line a bit higher than normal for the first gate allowing yourself vertical space for the chicane. You might also let your line run low exiting the chicane so that you end up with your apex of the first turn a little higher than the first gate and second apex a little lower than the gate.
Excellent answer thank you very much!
 

razie

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The "line" refers to the average (or typical?) line in that section of the course and "cutting the line" refers to a deviation from that average. When you cut the line, you'll have to slam on the brakes harder, later, compared to the others, so it's a tactical choice: either you came in too slow, screwed up or want to do something else coming out of it: you'll also come in higher than usual, since you're going straighter at the gate...
 

Swede

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Just to tie in — choosing a tighter line sucessfully requires a more aggressive technique, which requires more strength. It’s not for everyone. Last seasons best example inmo where Slovenian racer Ilka Stuhec who came to the 17/18 season from a reinvented pre season — much stronger and faster.
 

K2 Rat

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because of his smaller size, Daron Rahlves had to consistently look to cut off the line. Certainly worked for him in many races
 

K2 Rat

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I made this video back in 2014 of Bode cutting off the line at the Steilhang in the Hanenkamm. It worked and he crushed the field in training. Unfortunately, others studied the films and copied his line on race day and Bode came up short

 

razie

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I made this video back in 2014 of Bode cutting off the line at the Steilhang in the Hanenkamm. It worked and he crushed the field in training. Unfortunately, others studied the films and copied his line on race day and Bode came up short


The way I see it - at 3m2s Bode lost the outside ski, that's why he couldn't get elevation... - looks more like the screwup category. He also was out of balance longer than C. He was having a hard time to make it stick even going into the red gate above...

Looks like a compression there - Cuche also messed up under the red gate, but got a hold of it, climbed it and bent as much ski as he could and got back to the line...

So B - coming so low, there was no way to bend the skis around the gate, so he throws them sideways.

At the blue gate, Cuche was so hard on the outside ski, he got thrown around by the bumps under the blue gate and lost direction (almost lost it, throwing the hands in the air a few times), while Bode, coming in nice and slow and very angulated, was able to make it stick!

Nevertheless, your analysis is correct. I wonder what Cuche's time would have been if he was able to stick it under the blue gate, earlier. Looks like they're going into a blind jump, so maybe slower was better anyways...
 

SkiSpeed

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Great thread w/good insights. @K2 Rat, thanks for posting your analysis of the great Cuche/Miller run (do you have others that you could post?). I think that Cuche's run may be one of the best I have seen at Kitz since that legendary day in 1976. Around the time that @Speeder posted his q, I found this video. It is great and addresses some of the points Doug raises along w/other components of speed. Of course, it lacks the dulcet tones of K2 Rat! One warning about the video if you choose to watch it: the music you hear in the first 30 seconds is the music that is used for the entire video. You'll get my point after you hear it, but suffice to say, I have been subbing my own tunes while watching. Think Snow!
 

K2 Rat

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Great thread w/good insights. @K2 Rat, thanks for posting your analysis of the great Cuche/Miller run (do you have others that you could post?). I think that Cuche's run may be one of the best I have seen at Kitz since that legendary day in 1976. Around the time that @Speeder posted his q, I found this video. It is great and addresses some of the points Doug raises along w/other components of speed. Of course, it lacks the dulcet tones of K2 Rat! One warning about the video if you choose to watch it: the music you hear in the first 30 seconds is the music that is used for the entire video. You'll get my point after you hear it, but suffice to say, I have been subbing my own tunes while watching. Think Snow!

I made a couple more somewhat similar for the U14’s I was coaching at that time. This one goes back almost 5 years :


 

K2 Rat

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Great thread w/good insights. @K2 Rat, thanks for posting your analysis of the great Cuche/Miller run (do you have others that you could post?). I think that Cuche's run may be one of the best I have seen at Kitz since that legendary day in 1976. Around the time that @Speeder posted his q, I found this video. It is great and addresses some of the points Doug raises along w/other components of speed. Of course, it lacks the dulcet tones of K2 Rat! One warning about the video if you choose to watch it: the music you hear in the first 30 seconds is the music that is used for the entire video. You'll get my point after you hear it, but suffice to say, I have been subbing my own tunes while watching. Think Snow!

And this one

 

K2 Rat

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Great thread w/good insights. @K2 Rat, thanks for posting your analysis of the great Cuche/Miller run (do you have others that you could post?). I think that Cuche's run may be one of the best I have seen at Kitz since that legendary day in 1976. Around the time that @Speeder posted his q, I found this video. It is great and addresses some of the points Doug raises along w/other components of speed. Of course, it lacks the dulcet tones of K2 Rat! One warning about the video if you choose to watch it: the music you hear in the first 30 seconds is the music that is used for the entire video. You'll get my point after you hear it, but suffice to say, I have been subbing my own tunes while watching. Think Snow!

Last one :

 

Tricia

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Good stuff here.
 

Pete in Idaho

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In DH when coaches speak of "cutting off the line" what do they mean? Why wouldn't a racer ski the "cut off line" in training runs?

Speeder, just read this today and sitting around with a cold so thought I would comment. It is unknown why you asked the question (a good Q) so thought I would give some non World Cup answers to "cutting the line."

Disclaimer, I am not a race coach or WC expert like some the the very knowledgeable people here on Pugski. My comments are based on having raced for 25 yrs in strictly amateur competition, primarily police and firefighter races.

When preparing to race a course the competitors will first be allowed to "inspect" the course. This enables you to go thru the course either side slipping or in a wedge, no skiing the course is allowed. You cannot shadow just outside the course and ski regularly as that would be cheating.

Inspecting the course, will be the racers lst opportunity to look at the course and to determine and choose "their line". A WC racer will 100% look at a line differently than an amateur racer. A new racer may pick a line - to just survive the course, get a time and finish. In amateur racing if you listen closely you may hear, "ski the top-race the bottom". In other words survive the top and just ski it, race the bottom where you can somewhat safely push the envelope as it won't be so steep.

Picking a line for inexperienced racers will hinge on; their ability, confidence, condition of the course, steepness, type of snow and their knowledge of racing, how much coaching they have received. In amateur racing a common mistake is - too straight a line. Without the ability and experience, training and practice a racer will get late and very soon be unable to make a gate.

Line is so important. Do you know what is on the other side of that roller? Maybe a quick gate, depression, hard fall away turn etc. Absolutely a must is to inspect your line and to determine where the following happens:

Super G Course. As you are inspecting the course you have to find the places where you are blind to the next gate. The gate on the knoll will have to be taken in a certain way to line you up correctly for the gate you still can't see. Some courses may have 2 or 3 blind fall offs or turns. You must remember these gate and how you are going to take them when you are racing. Most courses will have turns that fall away, (i.e. turn goes to the right and hill falls away to the left) it is beneficial to record their location in your head so as to be prepared when they occur. Almost all fall away turns you will have to start your turn early and carve your outside ski to keep from dropping too low and consequently scrubbing speed by having to get back up to the next gate.

Another consideration while inspecting is to look for "changes in tempo", places where you will have to change your turn shape and rythmn to meet a change in gate placement or a change in the actual geography of the hill. This can also apply for example if you are skiing a long race that goes from firm snow to soft snow. It is possible that in soft snow you will need another line to prevent hitting the slush scraped into furrows somewhere on or next to the course.

Maintaining speed is what it is all about.

Probably one of the hardest things for a new racer to learn is to ski the correct line. The ability to see two gates ahead of where he/she is skiing and inspect the course correctly and apply that knowlewdge to your run.

An example. There was a Super G at Mammoth in the Police and Fire Games that contained a gate near the finish that was very important. It was just before the course fell off the the right 5 or 6 more gates to the finish which was almost flat. So, to take this gate correctly was to scrape off as little speed as possible to get through the finish with some momentum. Excluding the Expert division almost no one saw that this gate didnot contain a real turn. My old ski racer friend Ted told me to look at this gate very carefully. If you skied the correct line there was no turn on this pivot gate and then you carried a lot of speed thru to the finish. I won this race several times by less that half a second, my line on this gate was sthe reason, not my skiing necessarily but skiing the right line at the right time on the right part of the course.

SORRY GUYS if I got to basic but like I said it is summer, I am sitting on my duff watch the NFL nursing a cold so couldn't resist Cutting the Line from a novices angle. And thanks enjoyed the writings and video's above.
 

Atomicman

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Is it not all about the Riseline and where you begin your tune on the Riseline?
 
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Speeder

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Thanks for your replies and examplar video. My question was specifically about DH and I believe it to be answered. I thank you all again.
 

skix

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Thanks for your replies and examplar video.

Thanks for asking the question and resurrecting the thread. Had read it earlier but on this second read picked up alot I'd missed on the first pass.
 

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