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Damp vs Stable

blikkem

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Hi everyone,
What is the difference when a ski is described as damp vs stable. I've read some reviews that use one or the other. I understand what a damp ski is (absorption...) I have been on an older set of Head Monsters for the last couple of years so I'm pretty sure I've at least experienced dampness first hand. But where does one stop and the other begin, are they interchangeable? I'm reading reviews for specific ski and they keep mentioning how stable they are but it's dampness is never addressed (at least in the reviews I've read). Does this mean the mentioned stability should tell me enough about their dampness?
 
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Dr. Mark

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Good question. I also wonder what "damp" means regarding ski reviews. Does a damp ski still pop when you bend it?
 

Philpug

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Stability can come from a couple of different areas, less shape, like a GS ski can make a ski more stable. Or even the rocker/camber profile can make a ski more stable. A damp ski can mean a quiet ski, a ski that is smooth and connected to the snow. Some brands (and models) excel at this and some fall short in the balance of keeping a ski damp without neutering it. That balance of making a ski quiet and still have some pop is definately a tough balance to achieve and IMHO this is where we are seeing why Augment, Blossom, Stockli, Kastle and Stereo can command a higher price because they are able to acheive this level but there is a co$t to do so.

@blikkem you mention that you have been skiing a Monster for a while, great skis and a value in the damp/pop category. For the longest time I referred to the Monster 83/88 and value Kastle MX 83/88. You got 7/8ths the performance for about half the price. Now, it is the other 1/8th that made the Kastle worth the price difference. The way that a 21 year old scotch is worth 2x the price of a 18 year old or a Mercedes S600 is worth twice the price of a S420. Feel free to plug in whatever premium product here be it audio, watches, tools ect.
 

Lauren

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When someone describes a ski as “damp”, they are generally meaning the definition of “damp” as a verb (and turning it into an adjective).

Damp (or to dampen):
“to check the vibration or oscillation of (something, such as a string or a voltage).”

When this term is applied to a ski, it’s normally talking about a lack of feedback and vibrations from the ski. As philpug mentioned, this results in a smooth connection to the snow.

Stable is:
“(of an object or structure) not likely to give way or overturn; firmly fixed.”

In ski reviews, this normally means that the ski doesn’t deflect when hitting piles of snow and feels firm underfoot when testing the ski’s speed limits. There’s a strong, unwavering foundation to ski on.

IMO, stable is a tough term to figure out on ski reviews without context. What is stable to a clydesdale of a person will be different than someone gnome-sized. But, damp is damp, regardless of who’s skiing it.
 

Noodler

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If you really want to bury yourself in the minutiae of damp vs. stable, then check out this thread:

 

cantunamunch

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When this term is applied to a ski, it’s normally talking about a lack of feedback and vibrations from the ski. As philpug mentioned, this results in a smooth connection to the snow.

Stable is:
“(of an object or structure) not likely to give way or overturn; firmly fixed.”

In ski reviews, this normally means that the ski doesn’t deflect when hitting piles of snow and feels firm underfoot when testing the ski’s speed limits. There’s a strong, unwavering foundation to ski on.

IMO, stable is a tough term to figure out on ski reviews without context. What is stable to a clydesdale of a person will be different than someone gnome-sized. But, damp is damp, regardless of who’s skiing it.

You've captured the problem in your four paragraphs. The problem is that there are three quantities:

Stability - let's use your definition from above, it's fine for our purposes.

Suspension travel and stiffness - how much the ski deflects given any disturbance. By far the easiest way to make a ski that lacks feedback and vibrations is to give the ski more suspension travel. Suspension travel absolutely affects stability, absolutely changes depending on the skier skiing it, and absolutely affects 'pop' out of the turn.

Damping - how much of any given energy in the ski is dissipated as heat.

The problem is, that most skiers do not bother distinguishing damping from suspension travel and stiffness when they talk about skis, and if OP (or anyone else) reads reviews like that, of course they will be confused. Actually, most skiers don't distinguish damping from suspension travel and stiffness even when they're skiing. Which is bad.

By analogy, imagine a stiff-suspensioned Jeep TJ and a plush Caddy. Let's imagine we remove the shocks in both vehicles and just fit empty cylinder sleeves to where the shocks would be. Now let's take people for rides. Dollars to doughnuts that the overwhelming majority of riders will call the Caddy 'damper' even though neither vehicle is damped *at all*. That is exactly what is happening with ski reviews.
 
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tomahawkins

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Damping is the ability to attenuate oscillatory motion. The shock dampers in your car prevent you from bouncing up and down after hitting a pothole. Damping in a ski prevents bending and twisting vibrations to keep the edges engaged in the snow so you can maintain your turn through the gate. The mass-spring-damper model is the classic introduction to the equations of motion of these type of systems:


Not to get too mathy, but a mass-spring-damper system can be characterized by two parameters: the natural frequency and the damping ratio. The natural frequency is the frequency that the system wants to naturally oscillate at if perturbed and the damping ratio is an indication how fast the system settles back to steady state. The damping ratio can be either over damped (> 1), critically damped (== 1), or underdamped (< 1). A critically damped system will return to steady state in the quickest amount of time without any residual oscillation whereas a underdamped system will continue to oscillate as the magnitude of the oscillations decays to zero.

Skis are highly underdamped systems, at least in the bending mode. As a test, clamp a ski to a workbench with the front half overhanging the edge. Pluck the tip and then count the seconds go by as you wait for the oscillations to stop. As @cantunamunch alludes, skiers and ski reviewers tend to conflate damping with other characteristics like mass or stiffness. When a reviewer discusses how damp a ski is, chances are the ski is just heavier than the norm. Case in point: when I do the pluck test with my Fischer Ranger 94 FRs versus my Head Monster 88s (often referred to as one of the "dampest" skis available), both skis have similar steady state times of ~5-6 seconds. However, the Monster has noticeably slower oscillations, which is expected since it is a heavier ski and adding mass to a mass-spring-damper system lowers the natural frequency.

Regarding stability, it's more than just remaining firmly fixed, it's how a system responds to disturbances. After getting hit by a bump, either real or metaphorical, does the system steer itself back to where it wants to be (stable), does it do nothing (marginally stable), or does it steer in a completely wrong direction (unstable)? I recently did a test where I weighted the tips of my skis to see if it would improve lateral stability through chop: the idea being if the center of mass is moved forward on the ski, lateral disturbances to the ski would induce a torque that would cause the ski to steer into the disturbance as opposed to away from it. It worked and I encourage others to give it a try. If you're brave and don't fear ACL injuries, you could try the inverse test by weighting the tails of your skis making them more unstable.


Another fun stability test is to get a skateboard with different kingpin angles in the front and back trucks. Going forward, the board naturally compensates if you start to lean one way or another. However, going backwards on the skateboard presents a whole different riding experience. I suspect this has a direct analogy to ski design regarding fore and aft sidecut and binding placement. A lot of skiers like to play with their mount points; they are effectively adjusting the stability margins of a ski by doing so. BTW, more stability is not necessarily a good thing. For example, fighter aircraft are inherently unstable to improve maneuvering performance. This could be true of skiing as well.
 
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blikkem

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So from what I've been reading here and on @Noodler link (you guys made my head hurt). Stability helps with not getting thrown when deflecting off inconsistencies (bump, crud, etc) in the snow or whatever we want to call it at the end of the day when everything is all chewed up (that's when I'm concerned with it the most, tired legs and all). Of course the faster we go the more important this becomes.

Dampness is vibration or oscillation that helps the skis from feeling like a needle on a record player. Which helps with keeping the skis on the snow. If I am on edge, wouldn't a morse code type action make me want to let up a little of the pressure I'm putting on the skis, thus more likelihood to slip or lessen stability when hitting a sudden bump? This is of course from my perspective of skiing on the ice (east) coast where a little pressure difference goes a long way on most days.

One of my confusions is when they say a damp ski is "crud busting". That sounds more like stability where if you are "busting" through crud (small piles of bumpy snow) that means your skis aren't being deflected so you can keep moving on your intended course. Of course vibrations can affect that as well but I see it is mainly a stability issue.
 
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blikkem

blikkem

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Stability can come from a couple of different areas, less shape, like a GS ski can make a ski more stable. Or even the rocker/camber profile can make a ski more stable. A damp ski can mean a quiet ski, a ski that is smooth and connected to the snow. Some brands (and models) excel at this and some fall short in the balance of keeping a ski damp without neutering it. That balance of making a ski quiet and still have some pop is definately a tough balance to achieve and IMHO this is where we are seeing why Augment, Blossom, Stöckli, Kästle and Stereo can command a higher price because they are able to acheive this level but there is a co$t to do so.

@blikkem you mention that you have been skiing a Monster for a while, great skis and a value in the damp/pop category. For the longest time I referred to the Monster 83/88 and value Kästle MX 83/88. You got 7/8ths the performance for about half the price. Now, it is the other 1/8th that made the Kästle worth the price difference. The way that a 21 year old scotch is worth 2x the price of a 18 year old or a Mercedes S600 is worth twice the price of a S420. Feel free to plug in whatever premium product here be it audio, watches, tools ect.

Hey @Philpug
I have the Monster 83 from 2015-2016, I don't think the pop was there yet. I do love them for what they've given me. I've learned how to ski to it's strengths over the years. I've gotten better at long turns and built confidence staying with turns much longer then I did pre-Monster. I've also gotten more comfortable going faster as that is when they started become more fun. It has been a good teacher. I have been tracking the evolution of the Monster line because I wish it had more energy or pop at the end of my turns. This is why when I make those zipper moves down unplanned mogully parts of the trail to avoid crowds, it feels like pushing "a 2 ton heavy thing" (points if you know what song that's from).
 
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blikkem

blikkem

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When someone describes a ski as “damp”, they are generally meaning the definition of “damp” as a verb (and turning it into an adjective).

Damp (or to dampen):
“to check the vibration or oscillation of (something, such as a string or a voltage).”

When this term is applied to a ski, it’s normally talking about a lack of feedback and vibrations from the ski. As philpug mentioned, this results in a smooth connection to the snow.

Stable is:
“(of an object or structure) not likely to give way or overturn; firmly fixed.”

In ski reviews, this normally means that the ski doesn’t deflect when hitting piles of snow and feels firm underfoot when testing the ski’s speed limits. There’s a strong, unwavering foundation to ski on.

IMO, stable is a tough term to figure out on ski reviews without context. What is stable to a clydesdale of a person will be different than someone gnome-sized. But, damp is damp, regardless of who’s skiing it.

Thanks @elemmac I kind of repeated what you wrote above. This is why I read a lot of reviews (like most of us do). If the majority of sources from different skill level, height, weight, conditions, locations... repeat something I can be fairly sure that it has some semblance of that trait. I know nothing beats a demo.
Good point that damp is damp, regardless. I'll remember that. As I wrote above, doesn't dampness lend itself to the stability of a ski? Not necessarily on paper but the skiers response to vibrations create an unstable situation and you know people like to blame equipment failure before themselves.
 

cantunamunch

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Dampness is vibration or oscillation that helps the skis from feeling like a needle on a record player. Which helps with keeping the skis on the snow. If I am on edge, wouldn't a morse code type action make me want to let up a little of the pressure I'm putting on the skis, thus more likelihood to slip or lessen stability when hitting a sudden bump? This is of course from my perspective of skiing on the ice (east) coast where a little pressure difference goes a long way on most days.

If you are seeing that happen in your skiing, then yes, it is happening. When it happens to me, I generally take that as a cue to change my turn shape (with varying degrees of success), but if you say it is making you back off or lose timing, then we absolutely believe you.


In fact, that was one of the problems @Noodler and I were having in the linked thread - we couldn't persuade the guy that there are vibrations skiers do not want to feel, even if they are not large compared to sustained vibrations that he could measure, even if they are not inherently damaging to body tissues.

(To feel the vibrations he was talking about, visit any gym with a Power Plate vibration trainer. I'll bet that's not what you're feeling in the ski when you want extra damping).

One of my confusions is when they say a damp ski is "crud busting". That sounds more like stability where if you are "busting" through crud (small piles of bumpy snow) that means your skis aren't being deflected so you can keep moving on your intended course. Of course vibrations can affect that as well but I see it is mainly a stability issue.

That just speaks to a relatively stiff suspension on a ski. See my point above on suspension being conflated with damping in most reviews. In other words, I agree with you, and I can list any number of 'crudbusting' skis (with carbon fiber and other amazing builds!) that aren't damp in the vibration absorbing sense at all.
 
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blikkem

blikkem

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If you really want to bury yourself in the minutiae of damp vs. stable, then check out this thread:


I went and pinged the skis I have. It's interesting, the vibration that I feel in my hand while holding the ski between the bindings was like a slow wooden guitar string slight wobble. So the Monsters I have wobble/vibration the least with a big dead spot right where the affective edge starts (right after the rise) all the way to about 7 inches above the binding. Even outside that dead spot, there was very minimal wobble/vibration. I also have a pair of Fischer Motives 95, they vibrated more with a smaller dead spot that also resided around the beginning of the affective edge (after the rise). Also an older ski I have. interesting test. I'm sure you've developed a baseline and use that to judge the pings you do on skis you've never fondled.
But the sounds you listen for didn't make sense to me. The Monsters gave a more high pitch almost hollow like I was knocking a thick piece of plastic, while the Fischers more deeper like a solid piece of wood. If I were to go by sound alone the Fischers felt more solid and thudyer.
 

cantunamunch

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But the sounds you listen for didn't make sense to me. The Monsters gave a more high pitch almost hollow like I was knocking a thick piece of plastic, while the Fischers more deeper like a solid piece of wood. If I were to go by sound alone the Fischers felt more solid and thudyer.

That is the natural frequency @tomahawkins was writing about. Lower is generally better (smaller responses to impact) but there is a weight penalty, and lower natural frequency doesn't mean higher damping ratio.
 
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blikkem

blikkem

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You've captured the problem in your four paragraphs. The problem is that there are three quantities:

Stability - let's use your definition from above, it's fine for our purposes.

Suspension travel and stiffness - how much the ski deflects given any disturbance. By far the easiest way to make a ski that lacks feedback and vibrations is to give the ski more suspension travel. Suspension travel absolutely affects stability, absolutely changes depending on the skier skiing it, and absolutely affects 'pop' out of the turn.

Damping - how much of any given energy in the ski is dissipated as heat.

The problem is, that most skiers do not bother distinguishing damping from suspension travel and stiffness when they talk about skis, and if OP (or anyone else) reads reviews like that, of course they will be confused. Actually, most skiers don't distinguish damping from suspension travel and stiffness even when they're skiing. Which is bad.

By analogy, imagine a stiff-suspensioned Jeep TJ and a plush Caddy. Let's imagine we remove the shocks in both vehicles and just fit empty cylinder sleeves to where the shocks would be. Now let's take people for rides. Dollars to doughnuts that the overwhelming majority of riders will call the Caddy 'damper' even though neither vehicle is damped *at all*. That is exactly what is happening with ski reviews.

Hi @cantunamunch
Great this helps. I understand what you are getting at. There are skis that buck the correlation between stiffness, weight and build to performance. Basically, it's always changing so I don't take any hard set rule to figuring out what I want. I imagine every company has a mad scientist in a room coming up with some new combination to change what we all think we know. How many times have I read reviews that say on paper it should be this, but when we ski it, it acts like that?
Besides, as you can tell I use my equipment for a long time before looking for something new. Each time there is new technology someone has figured out that makes all the knowledge from my research 5 years ago obsolete. I don't take anything for granted.
Most reviews I've read don't mention suspension travel or maybe I'm not looking for it.
 
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blikkem

blikkem

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Damping is the ability to attenuate oscillatory motion. The shock dampers in your car prevent you from bouncing up and down after hitting a pothole. Damping in a ski prevents bending and twisting vibrations to keep the edges engaged in the snow so you can maintain your turn through the gate. The mass-spring-damper model is the classic introduction to the equations of motion of these type of systems:


Not to get too mathy, but a mass-spring-damper system can be characterized by two parameters: the natural frequency and the damping ratio. The natural frequency is the frequency that the system wants to naturally oscillate at if perturbed and the damping ratio is an indication how fast the system settles back to steady state. The damping ratio can be either over damped (> 1), critically damped (== 1), or underdamped (< 1). A critically damped system will return to steady state in the quickest amount of time without any residual oscillation whereas a underdamped system will continue to oscillate as the magnitude of the oscillations decays to zero.

Skis are highly underdamped systems, at least in the bending mode. As a test, clamp a ski to a workbench with the front half overhanging the edge. Pluck the tip and then count the seconds go by as you wait for the oscillations to stop. As @cantunamunch alludes, skiers and ski reviewers tend to conflate damping with other characteristics like mass or stiffness. When a reviewer discusses how damp a ski is, chances are the ski is just heavier than the norm. Case in point: when I do the pluck test with my Fischer Ranger 94 FRs versus my Head Monster 88s (often referred to as one of the "dampest" skis available), both skis have similar steady state times of ~5-6 seconds. However, the Monster has noticeably slower oscillations, which is expected since it is a heavier ski and adding mass to a mass-spring-damper system lowers the natural frequency.

Regarding stability, it's more than just remaining firmly fixed, it's how a system responds to disturbances. After getting hit by a bump, either real or metaphorical, does the system steer itself back to where it wants to be (stable), does it do nothing (marginally stable), or does it steer in a completely wrong direction (unstable)? I recently did a test where I weighted the tips of my skis to see if it would improve lateral stability through chop: the idea being if the center of mass is moved forward on the ski, lateral disturbances to the ski would induce a torque that would cause the ski to steer into the disturbance as opposed to away from it. It worked and I encourage others to give it a try. If you're brave and don't fear ACL injuries, you could try the inverse test by weighting the tails of your skis making them more unstable.


Another fun stability test is to get a skateboard with different kingpin angles in the front and back trucks. Going forward, the board naturally compensates if you start to lean one way or another. However, going backwards on the skateboard presents a whole different riding experience. I suspect this has a direct analogy to ski design regarding fore and aft sidecut and binding placement. A lot of skiers like to play with their mount points; they are effectively adjusting the stability margins of a ski by doing so. BTW, more stability is not necessarily a good thing. For example, fighter aircraft are inherently unstable to improve maneuvering performance. This could be true of skiing as well.

Hey @tomahawkins
You are funny. I saw the hockey pucks you put on your skis, you even took one of them on the snow. That must have been fun. Thanks for letting us know you didn't actually drill holes in your skis, it was a little painful to see before I read that.
Yes, I'm starting to get dampness is the twanginess of the ski. Your Monsters vibrated less in frequency, but not necessarily in length of time. Although maybe it did, while vibration may have stopped on the Monsters the larger movement has not.
I remember when I was taking a break and talking to one of the staff at the resort we were standing near a couple of race skis. He asked me to pick one of them up. I did and it was so heavy. Now I understand how those guys can confidently fly through those gates.
 
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blikkem

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If you are seeing that happen in your skiing, then yes, it is happening. When it happens to me, I generally take that as a cue to change my turn shape (with varying degrees of success), but if you say it is making you back off or lose timing, then we absolutely believe you.


In fact, that was one of the problems @Noodler and I were having in the linked thread - we couldn't persuade the guy that there are vibrations skiers do not want to feel, even if they are not large compared to sustained vibrations that he could measure, even if they are not inherently damaging to body tissues.

(To feel the vibrations he was talking about, visit any gym with a Power Plate vibration trainer. I'll bet that's not what you're feeling in the ski when you want extra damping).



That just speaks to a relatively stiff suspension on a ski. See my point above on suspension being conflated with damping in most reviews. In other words, I agree with you, and I can list any number of 'crudbusting' skis (with carbon fiber and other amazing builds!) that aren't damp in the vibration absorbing sense at all.

Yes, I understood where you and @Noodler were coming from. All I could think about was "this is why we don't have engineers and scientists work on user experience" (which I do) so I totally get it. I do love all of you for getting so technical about it. It's important but it's not everything. I think he was being purely scientific and wasn't connecting that part of his brain to the part that activates when he is actually skiing. Maybe he's always skied on damp skis or in some physical way not bothered by it, so he doesn't see it as a thing.
 

oldschoolskier

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Stable ski is a ski that holds the direction you set and doesn’t want constantly change direction without input. A lot of factors determine this unfortunately. Think of mature adult vs immature youth.

Damp or Lively in my eyes are best envisioned via a Jack Russell (Lively) ready to go at moments notice and Black Lab (Damp) does whats expected but not excited constantly). Both do and react the same just one needs a little more control from the owner (skier).

Question becomes how twitchy do you want you ski (stable) and how fast to you want it to appear react (damp or lively).

One term you missed is Nervous, is the ski overly responsive to any input, Paranoid.

All of these terms have engineering equivalents that can be quantified, however when reading reviews: 1. Does the reviewer match how you ski and see things, 2. Then the terms used will greatly apply to you are looking for, 3. Are they consistent. From ski companies it comes from the marketing department so it is a little more tongue in cheek and therefore a little suspect though it does point you into the right direction.

To evaluate a reviewer, try one of the skis you have a review on, ski it, does it instill the same description and feelings you?
 

Lauren

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As I wrote above, doesn't dampness lend itself to the stability of a ski? Not necessarily on paper but the skiers response to vibrations create an unstable situation and you know people like to blame equipment failure before themselves.

I think of dampness is a property of a material, whereas stability is the performance or outcome of that (and other properties).

Dampness, stiffness, strength, and springiness of the material all of effect stability, poppiness, and playful nature of how the ski performs.
 
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Ok, so this is what led me to ask this questions.
My rotation is 2015-16 Head Monster 83 and Fischer Motive 95. I use the Monsters most of the time because in the east coast where I ski... well, you know. I'm one of those people who stay out all day and I wanted something that would get me through the day while still enjoy the end of day, bumped up crazytown either hard frozen or soft heavy. I bought the Monsters because I thought damp meant stable. Although I have no complaints. I use the Motives when there's at least a couple of inches of dry snow, groomed or fresh (the unrelated problem is those days are great in the woods and I end up scrapping up the base :(). I love the energy and pop the Motives gives me, it's so smooth and so satisfying to carve (maybe it was the snow contributed to that feeling), from what I've read Fischer-like. I imagine coming from that model year Monster anything feels energetic and poppy.
I've always wished the Monsters had more energy/pop from turn to turn (short turns are a chore) easier on those tires legs. I still like them, they serve their purpose well. Now thanks to the Monsters I've become a stronger skier (needed to in order to get the best out of them) and think maybe I'm ready for something new (to me).

I was curious about the Fischer Pro Mtn 86 TI that I would add to my Monsters as my daily driver. In my research "stable" and "versatile" was the overwhelming traits while being one of the lightest all-mountain skis, but nothing about dampness. How does light and stable work together? Thus my question to first define stable. I also hear the newer Monster 83 TI's have more pop relatively, without losing it's "Monsterness". Does this mean my Monster plus energy? Or could the narrower Fischers be an ice coast version of the Motives?
I'm just poking around and dreaming, but that's what led me to the Motives so ya never know.
 
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