Deb Armstrong playing with the pros/short turns question

[Plai]

While watching this video a few questions popped to mind:

1. Where are they? My guess is Deb's homebase of Streamboat. @Ron
2. What turn radius are their skis? 13m-sih/SL skis?
3. They were making a lot of short turns, down long slopes, and making them look effortless. Most tutorial videos I've seen are about making short sequences of short turns 3, 5, 7s. I can guess at the utility of being comfortable making a lot of short turns. Any hints, videos on learning how to do this without working up much of a sweat? [I'm assuming they're that comfortable to not sweat much while doing so. Maybe I'm wrong.]

And a comment, Wow, just wow at how comfortable they seem.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Plai, how do you start your short turns? How do you end them? How do you get your skis to turn through the fall line?

Something is probably different between what you do and what they do. If you're working up a sweat when making short turns for a long distance, something you're doing is inefficient. Muscles are being used in a way that's both tiring and unnecessary.

Everything these folks do is efficient. There's no extra muscle work going on. They paid their dues and have learned how to ski in the most efficient way over their careers. I suspect they are not working up much of a sweat.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Their skis are short and probably have a short turn radius. Others will recognize the specific skis.
These are fall-line-turns. Note: the skiers are not allowing their skis to turn very far across the fall line.
They are just tipping the skis, which bends them, and the skis turn. Then they tip them to the other side.
Upper bodies stay upright and face downhill, feet go out to the side, femurs point left-right, knees wag.
There isn't much body movement going on.
Their skis are firmly gripping the snow; there's little to no skidding. What they are doing will work on ice.
They are moving downhill with speed. Speed control comes from ski bending, not turn completion.

How are your turns different? Got video?

 

[Rich McP]

While watching this video a few questions popped to mind:

1. Where are they? My guess is Deb's homebase of Streamboat. @Ron

As to number one: it's Vail.

 

[Steve]

Looks like Vail to me. I know Deb suggests a lot of lower leg steering in her short turn video.

Yes, beautiful skiing, fun video.

 

[KevinF]

They mention what skis they're on at one point, or at least the waist widths... 84mm and 74mm underfoot, which isn't really what I think of in terms of high-performance groomer-cruiser skis. i.e., this is the pilot, not the skis.

As for how to crank out hundreds of short turns without getting tired... it's economy of movement. Anything that starts going left has to reverse direction in a hurry, and vice versa. Nothing moves that doesn't absolutely have to move.

 

[Plai]

@LiquidFeet et al thanks for the replies. Their efficiency was my assumption too.

As for my turns, no video. My biggest transgression (I think) is that I'm "riding" my turns, staying in transition longer than necessary. I'm also making more of a "complete" turn ("C" shape, rather than a shallow "S") in the fall line.

I think I'm "stuck" in transition due to some technical flaw or misunderstanding. Yes, I've already incorporated some retraction of feet, and yes, I'm "falling" into my turns. I think I might be "too forward". The ladies in the video seem more upright than I think I am mentally.

Short answer is probably, I need to pay more dues (time and lessons).

 

[LiquidFeet]

This is where "quiet upper body" makes sense. No muscle strain going on up there. No leaning in, no rotating against the skis no cranking the body into angulation. It's the legs working. The feet and lower legs are leading the action and the upper legs are along for the ride, femurs turning in stable hip sockets.

On beginner terrain, tip both feet at ankles inside boots to start turns; do nothing else. Stand upright, quiet upper body. Do this to make railroad tracks. Work on making pencil-thin tracks on green/yellow/beginner terrain and repeat until pencil-thin tracks are easy. Keep upper body "quiet" aka out of the picture, shoulders and pelvis not turning, torso upright and facing downhill. Lower your body with the knees to get higher edge angles; this will cause the feet to go farther out to the side, while the upper body stays upright. If skis keep rotating and won't form a groove in the snow, get instructor help.

To morph simple RRTrx into the fall line turns in the video, move to green terrain and work on dipping knees lower/closer to snow as your turns progress -- while keeping torso upright and facing downhill. You'll end up doing what they are doing. With time move to blue groomers. Keep the tempo snappy! You'll be moving along with speed, but will have firm grip on snow. It's a very secure feeling.

For the wider turns shown at the end of the video, hold onto the short fall-line-turns longer and lower the knees more; the hips will drop only as far as necessary to support the work of the lower legs. Your corridor will widen. The knees won't be in danger because they won't be bending sideways even though it looks that way and may feel that way. Hip drop is a by-product on wider turns when done this way. Hold upper body as upright as you can, and face it downhillish as turns come across the fall line more.

 

[Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel]

this belongs in 'why i love groomers' thread.

what I see is a) exceptional pole work and b) sometimes they almost lift the old downhill leg to unweight it (like the old style of turn initiation but I am deletant and know nothing).

 

[SSSdave]

I choose to ski like that often even on groomers because its more fun where many otherwise ski like they are bored. If one can't do so easily on blue slopes as slalom racers learn to, neither will one on black. Much lower body dynamic motion but little added energy for every following turn because one uses the energy stored and released in the flexed skis plus that in the synchronized skelectalmuscular system. Like bouncing lightly at the center of a trampoline, little effort required to keep a good bounce going as one learns to sync the body motion to the elasticity of the trampoline just like kids do naturally bouncing up and down on their beds when the parents are not around. Likewise in more dynamic dancing there is that same goal of finding that efficient rhythm side to side, back and forth, too and fro, up and down, around and around.

 

[pchewn]

this belongs in 'why i love groomers' thread.

what I see is a) exceptional pole work and b) sometimes they almost lift the old downhill leg to unweight it (like the old style of turn initiation but I am deletant and know nothing).

I noticed that the skier with the yellow jacket lifts her right ski but not so much her left ski. Very nice skiing overall.

 

[Steve]

I choose to ski like that often even on groomers because its more fun where many otherwise ski like they are bored. If one can't do so easily on blue slopes as slalom racers learn to, neither will one on black. Much lower body dynamic motion but little added energy for every following turn because one uses the energy stored and released in the flexed skis plus that in the synchronized skelectalmuscular system. Like bouncing lightly at the center of a trampoline, little effort required to keep a good bounce going as one learns to sync the body motion to the elasticity of the trampoline just like kids do naturally bouncing up and down on their beds when the parents are not around. Likewise in more dynamic dancing there is that same goal of finding that efficient rhythm side to side, back and forth, too and fro, up and down, around and around.

Deb has a video where she coaches this bounce. It’s a powder video but it’s still a part of skiing. The trampoline effect.

 

[cantunamunch]

3. They were making a lot of short turns, down long slopes, and making them look effortless. Most tutorial videos I've seen are about making short sequences of short turns 3, 5, 7s. I can guess at the utility of being comfortable making a lot of short turns. Any hints, videos on learning how to do this without working up much of a sweat? [I'm assuming they're that comfortable to not sweat much while doing so. Maybe I'm wrong.]
And a comment, Wow, just wow at how comfortable they seem.

Just start making more turns. See if you can reach a reasonable quotient like 100 turns per 1000' vertical. Sweat is going to be the least of your issues; fatigue in the hips and back support muscles will set in way before you start dripping. That fatigue is the strongest inefficiency feedback signal you can have. Play with your skiing while you have it, try to adapt and make less of it. In 4K-5K vertical you can totally change your body awareness.

 

[raytseng]

@LiquidFeet et al thanks for the replies. Their efficiency was my assumption too.

As for my turns, no video. My biggest transgression (I think) is that I'm "riding" my turns, staying in transition longer than necessary. I'm also making more of a "complete" turn ("C" shape, rather than a shallow "S") in the fall line.

I think I'm "stuck" in transition due to some technical flaw or misunderstanding. Yes, I've already incorporated some retraction of feet, and yes, I'm "falling" into my turns. I think I might be "too forward". The ladies in the video seem more upright than I think I am mentally.

Short answer is probably, I need to pay more dues (time and lessons).

hey paul, i believe you have 167 laser ax so if you're practicing with that, that skitype shouldnt have any issues to hold you back and making similar super short turns giving you all the energy back on a groomer.
I have no teaching exp. so my advice is worth exactly 2cents, but what unlocked this step for me personally was to practice the infinity drill stickied in this forum, It unlocks that whole axis of forward and aft ski control if you weren't doing that and getting a feel of how all the axies affects your turns and edges.

Since you brought up retraction you've maybe need to also be aware of fore/aft.
Ultimarely there ar 5 (or even more) axises you can move and position the ski relative to your body (rotary, tipping, lateral, retraction/extension, fore/aft) and all these axis work together with the edge to affect how the ski interacts with the surface, and create different turns in your toolbox. So if you haven't unlocked fore/aft, that's my tip to explore that axis. Then there is some next-level stuff to apply this independently to each ski (Orange jacket in particular has a bit extra more fore/aft with the skis scissoring in some of their sections).

Hopefully this becomes instinctual with enough time and feedback from the surface. So its the foot and ski that ultimately needs to do these finetuning things, and you can't be thinking move foot 7degees rotary, while barrel rolling 30degrees and moving latetally/foreaft in a 30cm decreasing radius arc. Just try the infinity drill instead.

 

[Mike King]

Interesting video. Deb definitely has the most modern technique, Cindy is more there, while Cooper looks pretty much like she's straight out of the 80's. If you want to be efficient, model your short turn on Deb's example rather than Coop's. But Coop's skiing is very good -- it just uses a lot more energy than Deb, and results in later maximum pressure than Deb's.

Mike

 

[Ron]

Where are they? My guess is Deb's homebase of Streamboat. @Ron

sadly, not steamboat. thinking Vail as well. She doesn't usually ski on 13m ski's. theres conversation that one is on a 84mm and the other 74.

 

[Seldomski]

Yeah thats Vail. Some shots of Northwoods lift, sourdough, chopstix, and base of golden peak.

Looks like a lot of fun!

 

[Magi]

While watching this video a few questions popped to mind:

1. Where are they? My guess is Deb's homebase of Streamboat. @Ron
2. What turn radius are their skis? 13m-sih/SL skis?
3. They were making a lot of short turns, down long slopes, and making them look effortless. Most tutorial videos I've seen are about making short sequences of short turns 3, 5, 7s. I can guess at the utility of being comfortable making a lot of short turns. Any hints, videos on learning how to do this without working up much of a sweat? [I'm assuming they're that comfortable to not sweat much while doing so. Maybe I'm wrong.]

And a comment, Wow, just wow at how comfortable they seem.

2. I think The blue skis are E84s, the Blizzi's are WRC somethings (guessing 14m ish), and the other Rossi's are Hero Elite's (with a big 13 stamped on them, so the SLish version).

3. They aren't breathing hard because the level of ski performance they're getting doesn't require a lot of effort (its mostly *exceptional* timing and a lot of precision movement). @raytseng has a great way to get a feel for it. They are blending the rate and amount of leg rotation they use (to change the steering angle) with the rate/amount of tipping the skis relative to the Center of Mass (to create grip).

Can you achieve the twin extremes of: Quickest possible rotation of the skis with no tipping, and really quick edge changes with no rotation? [both while your CoM doesn't deflect left/right] Now blend them and see what happens depending on the mix.

 

[Dakine]

Cooper, in the Yellow jacket, gots some old school going on.
But her race background is obvious.
She is blocking invisible gates, almost.
Tucking on the flats.
Competitive, you bet.
Her skiing is powerful.
Keeping up with her would be a big job.
And yes, they are breathing hard when the stop to talk after 100 turns.

 

[rustypouch]

I noticed that the skier with the yellow jacket lifts her right ski but not so much her left ski. Very nice skiing overall.

They both do, but it's more obvious with the skier in the yellow. The result is close to 100% weight transfer to the new outside ski early in the turn. This, in concert with rotating the femur of the new outside leg to start the turn and get the ski on edge, gives grip and control at or above the fall line.