Deb Armstrong: Use of the inside leg to change turn radius

[Plai]

Another fabulous Deb Armstrong ski instruction video.
This time focusing on driving the inside leg.

 

[geepers]

Key point at 1:57. "If you just stand on this outside ski you can still kind of fall in. But if you level (demos angulating/counter-balancing) you can't fall in."

 

[Roundturns]

Good stuff for sure

 

[Noodler]

This video was taken at Loveland.

 

[Noodler]

Simply, no. You should not be "driving" your inside knee forward. That's not the right turn thought and will most likely lead to scissoring and poor pelvis management for most skiers. Luckily the kid has some natural talent and wasn't going too crazy with the inside ski lead and losing his balance aft at transition, but with the right cues he would have been able to achieve tighter arcs and deeper angles.

 

[Bad Bob]

Wilson rocks. Good video.

 

[Fuller]

Simply, no. You should not be "driving" your inside knee forward. That's not the right turn thought and will most likely lead to scissoring and poor pelvis management for most skiers. Luckily the kid has some natural talent and wasn't going too crazy with the inside ski lead and losing his balance aft at transition, but with the right cues he would have been able to achieve tighter arcs and deeper angles.

I spent a long time trying to figure out this whole inside tip lead equation. It always seemed that there was conflicting advice.

 

[crgildart]

This was probably THE main thing that helped me transition from old school to modern skiing.. Consciously initiating the turn by dipping my inside knee down and in instead of picking up my inside leg on the transition..

 

[Noodler]

I spent a long time trying to figure out this whole inside tip lead equation. It always seemed that there was conflicting advice.

One of the concerns with telling a skier to drive their inside knee is that our "dry land" brain will try to perform that movement the same way you would when you aren't sliding around on snow. The confusion is exemplified by this comment posted on the video:

from: Goggle Bro
9 hours ago

Deb, I’ll have to watch this video again (or maybe a few times) to understand it. I am familiar with lightening the inside leg, shortening the inside leg, but don’t recall ever hearing anyone talk about “driving” the inside leg. If I may ask you for clarification, I’ll state it as a question. Should I think about the motion of the inside leg as 1.) driving it (projecting it forward), or 2.) shortening it (tucking it up), or 3.) a combination of the two actions whereas driving the inside leg forward will shorten it at the same time? If I’m missing the point or my question makes no sense and I’m off track, feel free to say so. Thanks."

 

[Fuller]

I agree, I love Deb but I'm not sure what driving the inside leg means. Hopefully it means doing it the way I already do it!

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I like his focus on leveling, I think if he works at it he'll find that he can level without driving the inside knee forward (if that's even what "driving" means to him). He will be able to have cleaner transitions if he doesn't have to shuffle away his tip lead every turn because he will be better able to balance on his new outside ski right away.

 

[Average Joe]

I would also caution using "driving" when describing inside leg movements.
Seems to me that leveling of the hips, using cues like this accomplished skier uses, might be more clear:

 

[newboots]

She's an amazing teacher. And coach.

 

[Average Joe]

I spent a long time trying to figure out this whole inside tip lead equation. It always seemed that there was conflicting advice.

I don't think "Inside tip lead" is the purpose. Shortening the inside half to level,the hips and shoulders is helping this young racer increase his edge angles and balance on the outside ski through all phases of the turn.
She describes it in a way that I would avoid, but her student seems to "get" the point, so mission accomplished.
To me, "driving" the inside knee forward is confusing

 

[slowrider]

I like to think of tipping/flexing my inside foot while moving through the turn. Could the young racer be more dynamic with his movements?

 

[Noodler]

My perspective is that the knee "driving forward" is actually the outcome from a different correct movement input. So a coach may see the result as being due to the knee driving forward, but that's not the turn thought that creates the proper movement of the inside knee.

You're not trying to drive (or even move) the knee "forward", the knee movement pattern is the consequential result of proper retraction of the inside leg, but it's important that the inside foot does not go with it. The inside foot is held back throughout the retraction movement. The result looks like knee drive, but is far from it.

 

[HardDaysNight]

She describes it in a way that I would avoid, but her student seems to "get" the point, so mission accomplished.
To me, "driving" the inside knee forward is confusing

I think he got the point well before she showed up for this canned YouTube segment. I don’t share the general admiration for her coaching which is invariably confusing and annoyingly ambagious. (Not to be confused with ambiguous which it is too.)

 

[JTurner]

I can understand the challenges raised by a few here that this could promote too much tip lead, etc. But, if one were to think of “driving” the inside knee as active dynamic angulation into the hill, which produces matching shins, and a “knees to skis” type closure of the inside ankle, which creates shin pressure through the turn, wouldn’t those both be universally agreed upon correct technique? They never suggested driving the inside foot forward, and the kid even mentioned avoiding too much tip lead.

Often people describe or internalize the way things feel differently, either because of differences in vocabulary or because people’s brains interpret the feelings of their own biomechanics in varying ways. Maybe this is one of those instances.

 

[Noodler]

I can understand the challenges raised by a few here that this could promote too much tip lead, etc. But, if one were to think of “driving” the inside knee as active dynamic angulation into the hill, which produces matching shins, and a “knees to skis” type closure of the inside ankle, which creates shin pressure through the turn, wouldn’t those both be universally agreed upon correct technique? They never suggested driving the inside foot forward, and the kid even mentioned avoiding too much tip lead.

Often people describe or internalize the way things feel differently, either because of differences in vocabulary or because people’s brains interpret the feelings of their own biomechanics in varying ways. Maybe this is one of those instances.

I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of the people I would ask to "drive their knee forward" are not going to do that by using retraction of that leg. So this kid has already put 2 and 2 together and gotten the right answer in his actual movement inputs. He's doing more than using this "swing thought" and that may have come from well earned experience from lots of slope time.

I like to think of the skiing movement inputs required to produce the desired outputs. I don't think drive the knee forward is correct or detailed enough for most skiers to understand the right way to accomplish the desired output. There are nuances to how to coach proper movement patterns and that means being as specific as possible so that there isn't any misinterpretation (to your point about vocabulary).

 

[David Chaus]

I only watched the video once, but I don’t recall hearing Deb say to drive the inside knee forward, she says to drive the inside knee. I like a description of the inside knee as the “guide,” in initiating the turn and adjusting the turn radius. I suppose that could mean it’s the one doing the driving?