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Deb Armstrong: Use of the inside leg to change turn radius

Rod9301

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Actually, I think you'll find the inside knee is lifted across the chest, not just elevated. I mentioned this in depth in post 35 (and illustrated it with some videos):

"I believe Deb is asking for the inside knee and thigh to actively and aggressively lift and cross over toward the outside shoulder in conjunction with the pelvis emphatically rotating (inside down and back; outside lifted and continually rotating around). If the skier combines this with a continual slide back of the inside foot and lifting of that arch, a dynamic and easily shaped turn will result. A well-executed javelin turn also produces this alignment. How aggressively this lift and cross over of the inside knee and thigh is performed will change the radius of the turn. It also results in excellent counterbalance and stability of the upper body."

I think you'll find the coaches that folks have been citing in this thread all agree on the fundamental activity of the inside foot in conjunction with this move.

Best!
Mike
You probably mean that the pelvis rotates towards the outside ski.
 

mike_m

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Yes and no. Both ends of the pelvis rotate in a diagonal alignment: The uphill, inside half lifts (along with the inside half of the upper body) and rotates around toward the outside ski opposite the direction of the ski tips. This is facilitated by sliding back the inside foot and lifting the inside of that arch (which, in turn, allows the inside knee to lift and cross over). The outside half of the pelvis tucks under and rotates back. If you try this connected series of moves while leaning against a wall. I think you'll find they all work in harmony.

Best!
Mike
 
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razie

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I like the focus on the inside leg, which is not common at all in coaching (like the kid said, he'd have thought she was crazy). Shorten the inside leg to get angles, don't shuffle too much, pay attention to level the hips while shortening the inside leg, all good things. Also the coaching, engaging the athlete via questioning etc, very good.

However, both of them bring up no foot focus to compensate the knee focus, I think the ankle is mentioned once and if you watch the skiing, the kid skis with the upper leg, no foot focus in this clip, going up and forward, which is par for coaching GS.

Also, the reference to natural lead, as if it's all passive - which it should not be - it is corrected in a follow up video talking about closing the ankle at the same time, which is how you limit the shuffle / keep the foot back while shortening the leg... but without making the connection.

The lateral aspect of "the drive" is not mentioned at all, the bend the pole drill, wich is great, is in another video. It's important to not let the hips get into the turn first, so if we put everything together, we could summarize the cue as to drive the knee up, forward and into the snow, if we were to use the knee as a cue, which I don't personally like to, because it's an artifact of other actions not an action in itself, unless you use the strong upper leg more than the feet, which this focus tends to create. Up as you're flexing, forward as you drive the inside hip forward and into the snow as you're tipping.

So, yeah I mean, it has some good thoughts and we don't have to agree on what cues work better for a given skier etc, but it could have been more complete the first time around, as I understand that main topic is "shorten the inside leg". I don't know if that shows some gaps in the kids mental model of the relationships, she must be using all these other elements when coaching, but he's just a freshman u14.
 
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LiquidFeet

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I like the focus on the inside leg, which is not common at all in coaching (like the kid said, he'd have thought she was crazy).....
My favorite trainer focuses on doing things with inside foot and ski to accomplish just about every purpose in skiing. The focus is almost exclusively on the new inside foot and ski, with intermittend attention to the inside thigh, leg, and hip. Most of the divergent focusing that comes up in training sessions has to do with individualized cues that are needed to help each person get over blockages to working with exclusively with the foot and ski.

I've watched this emphasis being very productive so far with trainees and myself. This coach is a former racer, retired PSIA National Team member, and current examiner ... PSIA all the way.
 
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razie

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My favorite trainer focuses on doing things with inside foot and ski to accomplish just about every purpose in skiing. The focus is almost exclusively on the new inside foot and ski, with intermittend attention to the inside thigh, leg, and hip. Most of the divergent focusing that comes up in training sessions has to do with individualized cues that are needed to help each person get over blockages to working with exclusively with the foot and ski.

I've watched this emphasis being very productive so far with trainees and myself. This coach is a former racer, retired PSIA National Team member, and current examiner ... PSIA all the way.
Cool!

I have coached all age groups and camps etc with many co-coaches, from tech to speed and back and went through a lot of training at several levels in several organizations and camps etc and I have not seen a significant inside leg focus as a common pattern, with one exception. Occasional drills like lifting it, Javelins, etc, of course, very few look at tipping it, few at shortening it, many lifting/lightening of course - that's typical, that's about it. But nothing organized and focused, beyond that - no study or integrated movements or management of it or anything like that, no focus on relationships like lifting the inside hip (leveling) which was refreshing in this video etc (although more relationships were spread into other videos).

I've also read most official manuals written in English and have not seen a significant (or any, really) focus there either. Maybe things are changing, manuals are updated all the time, some rewritten from scratch every few years - I would be curious how many here see a focus on the inside leg/foot/ski out on a common basis, from the pros at large?

What is your trainer doing with it? Some novel ideas? It does sound a bit excessive to look mostly at it though, to be honest... it is important, but not the be-all ;)

cheers
 
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Rdputnam515

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Does this action happen naturally during a turn once a skier is proficient at edging a downhill ski?

seems to me that using your uphill ski to ”steer” into a tighter turn would cause this movement to happen out of necessity?

just spit balling here. Perhaps recognizing this action will help skiers become better at changing turn size on the fly as a turn progresses?

just thinking more about this
 

cantunamunch

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Does this action happen naturally during a turn once a skier is proficient at edging a downhill ski?

seems to me that using your uphill ski to ”steer” into a tighter turn would cause this movement to happen out of necessity?

No, it's a trained move. It would take a *lot* of high-level solo experimentation to develop it through self-discovery - and just about no one at that level skis without coaching. (See cited pitfalls like hip dumping above).

To your second point, we're into the enabling mechanics of how to steer into a tighter turn - especially at the point where the intuitive skier might think they're at the limit of available steering. Experimentation also has a problem of being chronically late to the control party.
 
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LiquidFeet

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...In this case, I believe Deb is asking for the inside knee and thigh to actively and aggressively lift and cross over toward the outside shoulder in conjunction with the pelvis emphatically rotating (inside down and back; outside lifted and continually rotating around)....
....Oops, totally reversed what I meant to say. Thanks for catching that! Yes, the inside is lifted and rotated ahead; the outside is tucked under and back.... .....The uphill, inside half lifts (along with the inside half of the upper body) and rotates around toward the outside ski opposite the direction of the ski tips. This is facilitated by sliding back the inside foot and lifting the inside of that arch (which, in turn, allows the inside knee to lift and cross over).
Mike, I'm having trouble with the part about "actively and aggressively" lifting and moving the inside knee and thigh across the chest towards the outside shoulder.

Actively lifting the inside foot's arch will rotate the tibia along its long axis, pointing the knee outward, away from the body, not inward, and down toward the snow. This is caused by the tilt of the subtalar joint's axis.
Screen Shot 2021-12-29 at 7.02.41 AM.png

"Actively and aggressively" moving the knee across the chest in the opposite direction towards the outside shoulder, would move the knee up away from the snow, not down towards it, and moving it aggressively enough that the pelvis rotates "emphatically" to point outward?? I don't see it in Reilly's video. The inside knee comes up progressively, but not up and across the chest.

1640779524088.png

Screen Shot 2021-12-29 at 6.33.38 AM.png

Screen Shot 2021-12-29 at 6.33.46 AM.png

Screen Shot 2021-12-29 at 6.33.53 AM.png


I've found that rotating the pelvis into more counter than what's otherwise caused by essential edging movements will cause problems. Surely, @mike_m, you don't mean to do this.
 
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James

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Oops, totally reversed what I meant to say. Thanks for catching that! Yes, the inside is lifted and rotated ahead; the outside is tucked under and back. I must have had too much early holiday eggnog.

Best!
Mike

Mike, I'm having trouble with the part about "actively and aggressively" lifting and moving the inside knee and thigh across the chest towards the outside shoulder.

Actively lifting the inside foot's arch will rotate the tibia along its long axis, pointing the knee outward, away from the body, not inward, and down toward the snow. This is caused by the tilt of the subtalar joint's axis.
View attachment 153169
"Actively and aggressively" moving the knee across the chest in the opposite direction towards the outside shoulder, would move the knee up away from the snow, not down towards it, and moving it aggressively enough that the pelvis rotates "emphatically" to point outward?? I don't see it in Reilly's video. The inside knee comes up progressively, but not up and across the chest.

View attachment 153170
View attachment 153171
View attachment 153172
View attachment 153173

I've found that rotating the pelvis into more counter than what's otherwise caused by essential edging movements will cause problems. Surely you don't promote doing this.
Mike’s inside/outside seems totally confused. It confused me anyway, along with “across the chest”. I think he meant “old outside”. Across the chest is perhaps not the best descriptor. Maybe he’ll clarify.
 

ThomasD

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My perspective is that the knee "driving forward" is actually the outcome from a different correct movement input. So a coach may see the result as being due to the knee driving forward, but that's not the turn thought that creates the proper movement of the inside knee.

You're not trying to drive (or even move) the knee "forward", the knee movement pattern is the consequential result of proper retraction of the inside leg, but it's important that the inside foot does not go with it. The inside foot is held back throughout the retraction movement. The result looks like knee drive, but is far from it.
That explanation makes really good sense to me. I'm also not going to quibble about the kid's own terminology - mainly because it works for him.

The important take away from the video, it seems to me , is that if you are focused on doing the right things with the inside leg your outside leg simply must be doing the right things. Otherwise none of it is going to work out well.
 

mike_m

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This is turning into good discussion of a neglected, and rarely discussed, component of a high-level dynamic ski turn. Lifting and crossing-over of the inside knee/thigh toward the outside shoulder is not, I venture to say, well understood or part of most skiers technique. I certainly didn’t understand it for a long time. I think I do now, but it’s definitely worth exploring.

This move was first introduced to me at a PSIA National Academy by Jeb Boyd, coach of the PSIA National Demo Team. It sounded good, but I didn’t get it. It was reintroduced to me in New Zealand by Reilly McGlashan, then Tim Café (Alice Robinson’s coach until she went full time on the World Cup circuit). Again, I didn’t get it. It finally clicked when I was doing a clinic with Harald Harb and Diana Rogers. What opened the door for me was their emphasis on all activity starting low to the snow (transitioning by stepping to a soft uphill edge of the new outside ski, then sliding back and lifting the arch of the new inside foot as it rolls over), then letting activity move up the kinetic chain higher in the leg into the pelvis.

There have been several comments above that some of the skiers cited in videos do not refer to this activity being initiated by sliding back the new inside foot and lifting the inside arch. That may well be, but in the coaching they did with me, all of them do, indeed, consider this a necessary precursor.

In post 109, Liquidfeet questions the ability of the thigh/knee to cross toward the outside shoulder. As usual, her understanding of biomechanics is impeccable, but does not take into account that the movement described initiates in the rotation and tipping of the pelvis into the same alignment produced by a well-executed javelin turn. If I may, please let me re-post a static exercise we can do the illustrate how this activity occurs:

"The pelvis rotates in a diagonal alignment: The uphill, inside half lifts (along with the inside half of the upper body) and rotates around toward the outside ski opposite the direction of the ski tips. This is facilitated by sliding back the inside foot and lifting the inside of that arch (which, in turn, allows the inside knee to lift and cross over). The outside half of the pelvis tucks under and rotates back. If you try this connected series of moves while leaning against a wall. I think you'll find they all work in harmony."

She then posts a series of stills of Reilly doing a turn which, to my eyes, illustrates this activity perfectly! The inside thigh/knee is clearly pointing toward the outside shoulder.

If I may, I'd like to post another video of a quite accomplished skier who is illustrating kinetic chain activity clearly. Immediately after she transitions, focus on the activity of the new inside foot. To my eyes, it is clear she is sliding it back and lifting that arch. Activity then moves up to her lifting and crossing over the inside thigh/knee. This is accomplished by the rotation/tipping of her pelvis.



Anyway, this is the best I can do in explaining a series of moves that several world-class coaches have given me. I can only suggest folks try the sequence, first statically against a wall, then on the hill. It will be interesting to hear your reactions!

Best!
Mike
 
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razie

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This is turning into good discussion of a neglected, and rarely discussed, component of a high-level dynamic ski turn. Lifting and crossing-over of the inside knee/thigh toward the outside shoulder is not, I venture to say, well understood or part of most skiers technique. I certainly didn’t understand it for a long time. I think I do now, but it’s definitely worth exploring.
I wouldn't call that knee thing a move in itself, Mike, it is an advanced thing true and I have not see it discussed or explained much at all, at high edge angles - biomechanically, to get the biggest edge angles possible, the hips have to be on snow and the only way to do that is to allow the inside ski to ride flatter and let the knee point up - otherwise we'd have to be ballerinas or contortionistas, to drag the inside knee to the snow when the butt is there, kind'a like doing the splits, especially with the inside ski on edge. I remember doing that as a stretch in martial arts, one of the more annoying stretches, tbh.

When great skiers aim straight for big angles, they aim to do just that from the beginning, like Reilly in that sequence above. But I would not play with the knee for no reason until we're at hip to snow angles - foot tipping is more important or we hip dump.

So, briefly: just put the butt on snow, that's all it takes - the knee will take care of itself. If you see all hip dumpers look the same - so obviously the trick to avoid the hip dump is to keep counter at normal and no more and make sure you're still footing tipping through skis flat.

Don't look at the knee, look at the hip, the knee is just an arifact (as usual):

1640832305400.png

Very few got close enough to hear this particular cue from me :geek:. Most pros can't ski anywhere close to understanding these issues - you're lucky to train with and talk to the best!

Dragging the inside knee on snow at large edge angles is also very unnerving, balance-wise, to tip it that much and what tends to happen, the snow grabs the boot buckles or the edge and spins you around. Still happens to me rarely, scary as hell, no bueno - most would bail unless good at pirouetting a flat ski. So it's best avoided. But only when you get to hip to snow, otherwise you're inviting a massive hip dump for no reason.

Only one skier I know that can put the inside knee on snow at will and get away with it - but he was trained in the dark arts for quite a few years now and he's got a good feel for the snow.

1640832723218.png




P.S. I don't normally pivot a flat ski, but when I do, it's a pirouette!
 

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LiquidFeet

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This is turning into good discussion of a neglected, and rarely discussed, component of a high-level dynamic ski turn. Lifting and crossing-over of the inside knee/thigh toward the outside shoulder is not, I venture to say, well understood or part of most skiers technique. I certainly didn’t understand it for a long time. I think I do now, but it’s definitely worth exploring.

This move was first introduced to me at a PSIA National Academy by Jeb Boyd, coach of the PSIA National Demo Team. It sounded good, but I didn’t get it. It was reintroduced to me in New Zealand by Reilly McGlashan, then Tim Café (Alice Robinson’s coach until she went full time on the World Cup circuit). Again, I didn’t get it. It finally clicked when I was doing a clinic with Harald Harb and Diana Rogers. What opened the door for me was their emphasis on all activity starting low to the snow (transitioning by stepping to a soft uphill edge of the new outside ski, then sliding back and lifting the arch of the new inside foot as it rolls over), then letting activity move up the kinetic chain higher in the leg into the pelvis.

There have been several comments above that some of the skiers cited in videos do not refer to this activity being initiated by sliding back the new inside foot and lifting the inside arch. That may well be, but in the coaching they did with me, all of them do, indeed, consider this a necessary precursor.

In post 109, Liquidfeet questions the ability of the thigh/knee to cross toward the outside shoulder. As usual, her understanding of biomechanics is impeccable, but does not take into account that the movement described initiates in the rotation and tipping of the pelvis into the same alignment produced by a well-executed javelin turn. If I may, please let me re-post a static exercise we can do the illustrate how this activity occurs:

"The pelvis rotates in a diagonal alignment: The uphill, inside half lifts (along with the inside half of the upper body) and rotates around toward the outside ski opposite the direction of the ski tips. This is facilitated by sliding back the inside foot and lifting the inside of that arch (which, in turn, allows the inside knee to lift and cross over). The outside half of the pelvis tucks under and rotates back. If you try this connected series of moves while leaning against a wall. I think you'll find they all work in harmony."

She then posts a series of stills of Reilly doing a turn which, to my eyes, illustrates this activity perfectly! The inside thigh/knee is clearly pointing toward the outside shoulder.

If I may, I'd like to post another video of a quite accomplished skier who is illustrating kinetic chain activity clearly. Immediately after she transitions, focus on the activity of the new inside foot. To my eyes, it is clear she is sliding it back and lifting that arch. Activity then moves up to her lifting and crossing over the inside thigh/knee. This is accomplished by the rotation/tipping of her pelvis.



Anyway, this is the best I can do in explaining a series of moves that several world-class coaches have given me. I can only suggest folks try the sequence, first statically against a wall, then on the hill. It will be interesting to hear your reactions!

Best!
Mike
@mike_m, here's a question.

Among these four, what's a cause? what's a result?
--The raising on the inside foot's arch?
--The inside femur/knee being pulled towards the outside shoulder (I'm still not seeing it)?
--The inside hip being pulled up and forward?
--The outside hip being pulled back and down?

Does avoiding boot-out play into the "aggressive" movement of the inside knee? "Aggressive" sounds like it's conscious, and a cause, not a by-product of other movement.
 

LiquidFeet

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@mike_m, help me see this knee thing.

If I draw a line from the ankle to the knee of the inside leg, and extend it, it points at the inside shoulder. To point that knee at the outside shoulder, that line would point to the outside shoulder, wouldn't it? The femur would need to rotate inside. That's not something we ever see in these elite skiers and it's not happening here.

But you see it. There must be a miscommunication going on. What is it?
1640866406228.png
 

HardDaysNight

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This is turning into good discussion of a neglected, and rarely discussed, component of a high-level dynamic ski turn. Lifting and crossing-over of the inside knee/thigh toward the outside shoulder is not, I venture to say, well understood or part of most skiers technique. I certainly didn’t understand it for a long time. I think I do now, but it’s definitely worth exploring.

This move was first introduced to me at a PSIA National Academy by Jeb Boyd, coach of the PSIA National Demo Team. It sounded good, but I didn’t get it. It was reintroduced to me in New Zealand by Reilly McGlashan, then Tim Café (Alice Robinson’s coach until she went full time on the World Cup circuit). Again, I didn’t get it. It finally clicked when I was doing a clinic with Harald Harb and Diana Rogers. What opened the door for me was their emphasis on all activity starting low to the snow (transitioning by stepping to a soft uphill edge of the new outside ski, then sliding back and lifting the arch of the new inside foot as it rolls over), then letting activity move up the kinetic chain higher in the leg into the pelvis.

There have been several comments above that some of the skiers cited in videos do not refer to this activity being initiated by sliding back the new inside foot and lifting the inside arch. That may well be, but in the coaching they did with me, all of them do, indeed, consider this a necessary precursor.

In post 109, Liquidfeet questions the ability of the thigh/knee to cross toward the outside shoulder. As usual, her understanding of biomechanics is impeccable, but does not take into account that the movement described initiates in the rotation and tipping of the pelvis into the same alignment produced by a well-executed javelin turn. If I may, please let me re-post a static exercise we can do the illustrate how this activity occurs:

"The pelvis rotates in a diagonal alignment: The uphill, inside half lifts (along with the inside half of the upper body) and rotates around toward the outside ski opposite the direction of the ski tips. This is facilitated by sliding back the inside foot and lifting the inside of that arch (which, in turn, allows the inside knee to lift and cross over). The outside half of the pelvis tucks under and rotates back. If you try this connected series of moves while leaning against a wall. I think you'll find they all work in harmony."

She then posts a series of stills of Reilly doing a turn which, to my eyes, illustrates this activity perfectly! The inside thigh/knee is clearly pointing toward the outside shoulder.

If I may, I'd like to post another video of a quite accomplished skier who is illustrating kinetic chain activity clearly. Immediately after she transitions, focus on the activity of the new inside foot. To my eyes, it is clear she is sliding it back and lifting that arch. Activity then moves up to her lifting and crossing over the inside thigh/knee. This is accomplished by the rotation/tipping of her pelvis.



Anyway, this is the best I can do in explaining a series of moves that several world-class coaches have given me. I can only suggest folks try the sequence, first statically against a wall, then on the hill. It will be interesting to hear your reactions!

Best!
Mike
Great post about an important nuance in high level skiing. The movement described results from adduction of the femur in conjunction with creation of pelvic counter. The knee moves up and somewhat across in effect towards the outside shoulder. It’s the direction of knee movement that is being discussed which has nothing to do with drawing a line from the ankle to the knee. Since few recreational instructors seem to understand the importance of creating pelvic counter in high level turns this movement is a mystery to them, but it’s evident in virtually every great racer, especially in GS where angles tend to be deeper.
 

LiquidFeet

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The knee is at the top of the tibia and the bottom of the femur. Both move when the knee moves. "Pointing the knee" involves movement of the tibia. so a line drawn upward along the length of the tibia, through the kneecap, and beyond indicates where the knee is "pointing." The kneecap all by itself can't "point."

Or can some of you "high level" skiers make your kneecap point by moving the femur without moving the tibia? I'd like to see that. @HardDaysNight, got video?
 
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LiquidFeet

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Semantics; a photo shows a point in time.

If the knee moves across the chest towards the outside shoulder, then at the middle and end of that move it will be near the outside shoulder. Not the inside shoulder. In all the images I see of elite skiers on extremely high edge angles, that knee is closer to the inside shoulder than the outside shoulder at the apex of the turn. It will not ever get closer to the outside shoulder than the inside shoulder.

So there is a miscommunication going on here. I want to digest how that miscommunication is working.

Mike is saying (I think) that rotating that femur so that the knee moves away from the inside shoulder towards the outside shoulder, and doing it aggressively, causes the pelvis to move into counter. I think you agree. But where's the video and photo evidence of the knee's movement across the chest?
 
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