Deb Armstrong: Use of the inside leg to change turn radius

[Tony S]

I got a chance to experiment with the inside knee when I finally had my first day on snow. It really works!

Typically when I'm trying to make tight carved turns, once I get all my weight on my outside ski, I hit an edge angle and turn radius limit. When I try to get tighter, I realize I'm just trying to "will" higher edge angles and nothing happens.

When I lifted the inside knee (with the rest of the leg working to keep the ski parallel to the ground), the turn "magically" tightens.

Here's what i think is happening: the inside ski and leg have a small but not-insignificant fraction of your mass. When you pulll it up it moves the rest of your body down (since internal reconfiguration can't change the total center of mass). As your body goes lower, the edge angle goes up by simple geometry.

I was surprised that it had such a large, obvious effect.

This is great, @mdf. You're ready for gates now!

 

[David Chaus]

This is great, @mdf. You're ready for gates now!

And a speed suit!

 

[James]

I like the walking/running analogy. The big issue at lower levels is how to get them to commit to the stance foot (outside ski) early.
Also his mention of “when the body senses stability”. Prob the biggest hurdle for beginners.
Didn’t quite get his outside vs strong I think he said comment
hey @mdf , did you get what he was saying about inside perpendicular to the topsheet?

 

[Noodler]

I like the walking/running analogy. The big issue at lower levels is how to get them to commit to the stance foot (outside ski) early.
Also his mention of “when the body senses stability”. Prob the biggest hurdle for beginners.
Didn’t quite get his outside vs strong I think he said comment
hey @mdf , did you get what he was saying about inside perpendicular to the topsheet?

There are definitely some takeaways from the motion pattern of walking/running/biking that apply to skiing. The big difference is that in skiing the focus, that active movement, should be on the upstroke, not the downstroke. For many skiers, I think this will be exactly opposite of how they approach making a ski turn.

 

[mdf]

I like the walking/running analogy. The big issue at lower levels is how to get them to commit to the stance foot (outside ski) early.
Also his mention of “when the body senses stability”. Prob the biggest hurdle for beginners.
Didn’t quite get his outside vs strong I think he said comment
hey @mdf , did you get what he was saying about inside perpendicular to the topsheet?

No, I'll have to watch it again.
It was mostly the chicken-coop video that clicked with me. (I found the first video confusing and the last one to lose focus by covering adjacent topics.)

 

[James]

There are definitely some takeaways from the motion pattern of walking/running/biking that apply to skiing. The big difference is that in skiing the focus, that active movement, should be on the upstroke, not the downstroke. For many skiers, I think this will be exactly opposite of how they approach making a ski turn.

Yeah that’s the problem. The conundrum is release of the downhill/new inside ski is the most important thing, but to turn you really have to balance on the outside ski.
Many people want to know “where do I put my weight?” I try to avoid the weight issue like the plague, because once they think that, that’s all they think. They they start moving their body left to go right.

I can ask them, “do you think about where you put your weight when walking?”

Unfortunately many people learn “push left to go right”. It does work, but can lead to a lengthy time of bad habits and limit progress. Partly because they never get any other input for years.

 

[JESinstr]

I like the walking/running analogy. The big issue at lower levels is how to get them to commit to the stance foot (outside ski) early.
Also his mention of “when the body senses stability”. Prob the biggest hurdle for beginners.
Didn’t quite get his outside vs strong I think he said comment
hey @mdf , did you get what he was saying about inside perpendicular to the topsheet?

People come to skiing with an ingrained heel to toe dynamic balance (balance while on the move) mechanism designed to provide locomotion. This is what has to be changed when we don our skis and learn to ride. We need to adopt a "through the arch" centered balance mechanism. Heel to toe balance is what I need to change before anything else. If you want your beginners to sense stability, have them get in a medium wedge and lift their toes so they feel the tension of the "through the arch" platform.

There are definitely some takeaways from the motion pattern of walking/running/biking that apply to skiing. The big difference is that in skiing the focus, that active movement, should be on the upstroke, not the downstroke. For many skiers, I think this will be exactly opposite of how they approach making a ski turn.

Spot on. I like to say, skiing is easy... it's just not intuitive and the concept of conscious shortening of the inside leg (upstroke focus) is a key point to get across.

Yeah that’s the problem. The conundrum is release of the downhill/new inside ski is the most important thing, but to turn you really have to balance on the outside ski.
Many people want to know “where do I put my weight?” I try to avoid the weight issue like the plague, because once they think that, that’s all they think. They they start moving their body left to go right.

I can ask them, “do you think about where you put your weight when walking?”

Unfortunately many people learn “push left to go right”. It does work, but can lead to a lengthy time of bad habits and limit progress. Partly because they never get any other input for years.

When walking/running etc we are inclining and propelling our upper mass. Just asking for trouble IMO. A bicycle analogy which puts their butt to the seat (not sitting down) and hands on the handlebars allows the legs to do their work.

 

[LiquidFeet]

People come to skiing with an ingrained heel to toe dynamic balance (balance while on the move) mechanism designed to provide locomotion. This is what has to be changed when we don our skis and learn to ride. We need to adopt a "through the arch" centered balance mechanism. Heel to toe balance is what I need to change before anything else. If you want your beginners to sense stability, have them get in a medium wedge and lift their toes so they feel the tension of the "through the arch" platform.


Spot on. I like to say, skiing is easy... it's just not intuitive and the concept of conscious shortening of the inside leg (upstroke focus) is a key point to get across.


When walking/running etc we are inclining and propelling our upper mass. Just asking for trouble IMO. A bicycle analogy which puts their butt to the seat (not sitting down) and hands on the handlebars allows the legs to do their work.

double like for this entire post

 

[James]

People come to skiing with an ingrained heel to toe dynamic balance (balance while on the move) mechanism designed to provide locomotion. This is what has to be changed when we don our skis and learn to ride. We need to adopt a "through the arch" centered balance mechanism. Heel to toe balance is what I need to change before anything else. If you want your beginners to sense stability, have them get in a medium wedge and lift their toes so they feel the tension of the "through the arch" platform.

When walking/running etc we are inclining and propelling our upper mass. Just asking for trouble IMO. A bicycle analogy which puts their butt to the seat (not sitting down) and hands on the handlebars allows the legs to do their work.

I like the arch thing.
I don’t know about this ingrained heel toe issue. People stand too. We certainly don’t have an issue of people standing on their toes. That leaves heels. But they’re on their heels mainly because they’re scared. They look for anything to get some help, like poles.
What is ingrained is friction under the feet. People who’ve never skated or roller bladed have no reference at all for gliding.

Also ingrained into body function is stance leg and swing leg. But it’s not like just because you stand on one leg you start swinging the other.

Analogies are just that. The bike has it’s own issues. Sit down, push one foot down, let the other shorten. And of course you lean in. How to explain balance?

Actually getting someone to commit to balancing on their outside ski isn’t going to be accomplished by analogies.

This seems relevant, the reverse bicycle. People can’t ride it 10 feet.
Pro bike rider can’t ride the reverse steering bicycle, then practices for two weeks to learn it. But then he can’t ride the normal bike.

 

[Tony S]

What is ingrained is friction under the feet.

Yup

 

[JESinstr]

I like the arch thing.
I don’t know about this ingrained heel toe issue. People stand too. We certainly don’t have an issue of people standing on their toes. That leaves heels. But they’re on their heels mainly because they’re scared. They look for anything to get some help, like poles.
What is ingrained is friction under the feet. People who’ve never skated or roller bladed have no reference at all for gliding.

When people stand, they are at rest and their mass is supported skeletally, primarily through the heel. IMO, it is movement while the brain is expecting stillness that is at issue. Ever enter a moving walkway at the Airport? There is plenty of friction between your shoe and the mat. You even see this phenomenon on the magic carpet belt lifts.

There are other factors for being on your heels like when you head down a slope, you try to keep your perpendicular relationship with gravity and ski acceleration only makes the situation worse.

Also ingrained into body function is stance leg and swing leg. But it’s not like just because you stand on one leg you start swinging the other.

Analogies are just that. The bike has it’s own issues. Sit down, push one foot down, let the other shorten. And of course you lean in. How to explain balance?

Actually getting someone to commit to balancing on their outside ski isn’t going to be accomplished by analogies.

This seems relevant, the reverse bicycle. People can’t ride it 10 feet.
Pro bike rider can’t ride the reverse steering bicycle, then practices for two weeks to learn it. But then he can’t ride the normal bike.

I look at balance as the COM's relationship with the forces at play. In skiing, potential energy is supplied by the gravitational pull of hill and we have Gravitational and Centripetal forces to deal with in order make the tools (skis) work while remaining upright. To a large extent, beginner's upright balance mechanics address the force of Gravity while experts change their mechanics to take on the Centripetal turning force. This, IMO is the chasm that needs to be bridged. There is a difference between balancing ON edge (Gravity pulling) vs balancing AGAINST the edge (Centripetal pushing).

As to the bicycle analogy, like @Noodler posted, it is not about pushing down the outside but about lifting (softening) up the inside and is the opposite of bicycling, so I make it a point....a big point when describing the need for vertical leg action.

Your point on leaning is also valid however. And it is really at the crux of the matter IMO. Mechanically, it is the difference between inclination and angulation, yes? This is why I focus on what I call the Flex Complex (ankles, knees and hips). It is how we manipulate these lower body joints into new patterns, both fore and aft and laterally depending on the dominant force at play that leads to success.

 

[David Chaus]

Here’s a video from 11 years ago that this thread reminded me of. Short and to the point without a ton of analysis. It makes the task doable.

 

[JESinstr]

Here’s a video from 11 years ago that this thread reminded me of. Short and to the point without a ton of analysis. It makes the task doable.

I have always liked Josh's common-sense approach in his vids.

If you maintain a minimum tip lead and shorten your inside leg by raising the knee, doesn't that action accomplish what Josh is advocating? Try standing on the sides of your feet supporting yourself against a table or desk. Lift your inside knee while maintaining equal foot angles to the floor. You will feel Dorsiflexion kick in and how the resulting tongue pressure will provide the tip engagement that Josh describes. This is also tied into the practice of pulling your inside foot back.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Yesterday I thought a bit about actively flexing/shortening the inside leg and was happy with the results. I was already generally happy because it was a great ski day, but particularly happy at that point.

 

[bmoose21]

Just catching up on this thread. I just wanted to mention that Tom Gellie has a video out on Big Picture Skiing that addresses what I believe Mike was discussing here with respect to the inside leg. He describes it by demonstrating how the knee moves inside when doing a pistol squat & how the squat is more difficult if the knee is forced outward. He also mentions that he commonly sees problems with developing higher angles in skiers that are focused too much on the inside foot tipping, as it blocks that movement.

 

[TheApprentice]

He describes it by demonstrating how the knee moves inside when doing a pistol squat & how the squat is more difficult if the knee is forced outward.

There is a problem with the way this was described. The stance you have in transition and the stance you have in a squat have one key difference (if you do the former correctly). That would be the amount of weight that your legs are currently supporting. Of course holding a low squat position would be harder if you were to move one of your legs all the way out. But that effect does not occur when in transition because you are weightless.

 

[geepers]

There is a problem with the way this was described. The stance you have in transition and the stance you have in a squat have one key difference (if you do the former correctly). That would be the amount of weight that your legs are currently supporting. Of course holding a low squat position would be harder if you were to move one of your legs all the way out. But that effect does not occur when in transition because you are weightless.

The BPS guys (Tom Gellie and Sam Robertson) also point this out numerous times in their vids - not supporting weight with both legs flexed transition.

The post above is referring to the max angles, max load part of the turn, with outside leg long, inside leg short and hip to the snow, in its similarity to a pistol squat position.

Facebook post on this...

The inside half of your body needs to fold up and get out of the way do you can move inside the turn and carve. If it doesn’t or you block it the you get problems.

 

[mdf]

A subtlety that my Taos ski week instructor helped me understand (even though he was not specifically addressing the knee):

If you have a narrow stance and raise the inside knee, that ski just comes off the snow.
If you have a somewhat wider stance and some weight on the inside ski, raising the inside knee drops the chest towards it and gives you bigger angles.

 

[Rod9301]

A subtlety that my Taos ski week instructor helped me understand (even though he was not specifically addressing the knee):

If you have a narrow stance and raise the inside knee, that ski just comes off the snow.
If you have a somewhat wider stance and some weight on the inside ski, raising the inside knee drops the chest towards it and gives you bigger angles.

Can you explain how this works? Particularly narrow stance

 

[LiquidFeet]

A subtlety that my Taos ski week instructor helped me understand (even though he was not specifically addressing the knee):

If you have a narrow stance and raise the inside knee, that ski just comes off the snow.
If you have a somewhat wider stance and some weight on the inside ski, raising the inside knee drops the chest towards it and gives you bigger angles.

This does not synch with my experience. If I choose to lift the ski off the snow as i raise the inside knee, it comes up. If I choose to keep the ski on the snow as I raise that knee towards my inside armpit, the ski stays on the snow.

I don't consider stance width as a cause of whether the inside ski is airborne or not.

However, when I want my inside foot to be near my outside knee at the fall line, I move it closer as the knee comes up towards the armpit (and no, it never gets there).

I'm not sure stance width is a determinant - for me. But since intent is working, and not proprioception of stance width, I'm just not sure. Maybe stance width is an unacknowledged factor.

I look forward to hearing what others have experienced.