Dinosaur skied 4 days in last 20 years. Just stepped on modern skis for the first time. Yikes!

[BTWilliams]

Going back to your original post-your stats are similar to mine (I'm 5'10"/180) but about 20 years older. I had the G9 177 but gave them to my daughter and got the G9 183. I don't think you'd notice the difference in the 177 and I'd think the 172 would be too short for your size (although they'd be fun to play around on).

I currently have 3 pairs of 182/183 skis in my lineup-the Atomic G9 183/19.4, Stöckli Laser AX 182/17.4 and an old pair of Atomic FIS Spec Doubledeck 183/23+. Obviously, the old Atomics are the hardest to turn cleanly at slow speeds. The G9s and the Stöcklis feel somewhat similar and both are pretty easy to do railroad tracks on at even very moderate speeds. The G9's have better edge grip and are faster edge to edge.

I'm not even close to being an instructor or coach (just ask my wife!) but a couple of things that have worked for me is the Schlopy drill and working on pulling and keeping the inside knee back to vary the turn radius. I don't see any reason why with practice you can't make those G9 183s work for you as a fast groomer ski.

I can do RR tracks fine on medium or lesser slopes, with good technique. The issue is steeper slopes. Because of the stiffness of these skis, it is harder to get them on edge quickly. It is all about the turn entry. Because of this, I take longer than I should to bend the ski, and I end up gaining too much speed. Soon I am absolutely hauling ass, and then the forces in the ski and turn are immense....and exhausting. I can look at my ski tracks going up the lift...and no one on the hill is pushing the ski into the snow like I am. I am literally digging a trench with my DH ski....it feels like my knees/legs will give out (an injury) just from the sheer forces. The good part of this is that it forces me to learn to stack over the ski to handle the loads. The bad is I get tired, and then start getting back at the end of the turn...

Much of it is probably technique...and perhaps you are right that I should just give it time.

I am going to Sun Valley this week for 5 days of skiing, so that will be a chance to improve things.

Schlopy drill is indeed great to get stacked and improve edge angle. I need to do more of that drill, and focus on getting in that position earlier in the turn.

 

[geepers]

I can do RR tracks fine on medium or lesser slopes, with good technique. The issue is steeper slopes. Because of the stiffness of these skis, it is harder to get them on edge quickly. It is all about the turn entry. Because of this, I take longer than I should to bend the ski, and I end up gaining too much speed. Soon I am absolutely hauling ass, and then the forces in the ski and turn are immense....and exhausting. I can look at my ski tracks going up the lift...and no one on the hill is pushing the ski into the snow like I am. I am literally digging a trench with my DH ski....it feels like my knees/legs will give out (an injury) just from the sheer forces. The good part of this is that it forces me to learn to stack over the ski to handle the loads. The bad is I get tired, and then start getting back at the end of the turn...

Much of it is probably technique...and perhaps you are right that I should just give it time.

I am going to Sun Valley this week for 5 days of skiing, so that will be a chance to improve things.

Schlopy drill is indeed great to get stacked and improve edge angle. I need to do more of that drill, and focus on getting in that position earlier in the turn.

Welcome to the "How the heck do I carve steeper pitches" club.

There's a section in a Tom Gellie (Big Picture Skiing) vid that seems to cover what you are experiencing. There's an MA of a skier is attempting some carving turns on a groomer. The skier has trouble getting inside the new turn, so has issues getting the skis to bend, so the turn radius doesn't tighten, the speed picks up, the forces continue to build and eventually whip his butt...

This article by Paul Lorenz may help explain what's going on:

ANGULATION or INCLINATION??...What's the point?

Some extracts ( note: the "I" below is Paul Lorenz):

“appropriate inclination for the speed is what causes our skis to increase edge angle and align the the CoM against centripetal force”

“over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn. ...... The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving inside further

After attending the Korean and Japanese workshops at Interski I (Lorenz) started to play around with a few different ideas. They heavily stress weight on the inside ski or 50-50 ski weighting until the fall line to aid inclination. They believe that moving in with angulation and weight on the outside ski limits the amount one can move in. The important part for them is being inclined enough to deal with the extreme centripetal force at, or just after the fall line when the pressure is at its greatest. So I started playing around with inside ski weighting until the fall line. ..... The turning becomes extremely smooth. One can build more pressure due to the extreme edge angle of the outside ski and there is no struggle to be felt. That feeling of “g-force”, pressure, strength and struggle as felt in the over-angulated position was not there. It feels simple and easy because the forces are aligned and the skeletal system is doing its job.

While it may sound a little like I (Lorenz) am supporting the lean and hope technique, I am not. Angulation is the key to successfully inclining and staying in balance. Without the appropriate amount of angulation we will fall to the inside and lose grip with the outside ski.

What the Big Picture Skiing guys are saying is try not to pressure the ski at the top of the turn. Instead create edge angles by allowing the whole body to incline into the new turn using the forces from the previous turn and then angulate to load the outside ski.

Exhibit A are these River Radamus turns where it looks like he's in a great position through a combination of inclination and angulation to manage forces. Maybe it's what he's doing, maybe not.... either way it's interesting what he says in the interview below about his flow ethos and not muscling his way through the turn.



Found that Lorenz article and the BPS ideas is be very useful even for the modest angles/speeds which I'm able to achieve. Has changed my thinking from "not strong enough to get more out of carving turns" to "it's technique (mostly)".

 

[BTWilliams]

geepers,

Thanks for the post with content that was exactly along the lines of what I needed.... the strange thing is, I figured a lot of these same things in just the last few days. Strange how timing works out sometimes....

I have been skiing in Sun Valley for the last week. This is a unique mountain in that the average pitch is a bit steeper that most mountains, and the variance in pitch is minimal. There are very few flats, except for cat tracks. So it is a bit daunting to up your high energy carving game, but a good place to do it, because you have no choice to get things right. You have to be very careful to not let things get out of hand on the speed. Plus it has been melt-freeze this week, so parts of the mountain are blue ice much of the day.

I am big on drills, and the one base drill that I still feel does the most for me is Garlands, and getting them right. Not just looking right, but feeling right. I put in a huge amount of time doing them. Right leg uphill, I have them dialed but was still struggling to get my left leg to lead the initiation with left leg uphill. It is a dominance issue and lack of balance/confidence/control with the clutzy left left. When I get these working properly, and then go immediately do some turns....I ski much better. My general program is to do Garlands about 2/3 of a run...then some other drills (Swiss, Javelins, White Pass) and finally aggressive turns at the bottom to see how things are coming together. Rinse...repeat.

In just the last few days, I started to get a feel and rhythm for exactly what your post is about. I found myself getting high edge angles, and more importantly quick, fluid transitions that result in developing high edge angles ABOVE THE FALL LINE. This takes confidence. The confidence for me comes from all the foot/ankle control that comes from all those Garland transitions.

I really made a jump today. The power went out, and the lifts died, so they closed the mountain for a while. I was on the last lift they cleared, so I had a clear mountain with no people and was able to rip some super aggressive (at least I thought at the time) "slow line fast" carving turns. I got down to the lodge and started talking with one of the instructors. Turns out he was an ex racer from my same era (about 2 years older than me), and we raced some of the same competition in the 80s. He was watching me come down the hill, and complimented on my turns, and we started talking about technique, and what I was working on. He gave me two suggestions which were golden.

#1 - He agreed that Garlands were a good drill for developing foot/ankle/knee control that is critical to carving transitions. He said that my non-dominant left leg problems are common, and he suspected that there was body position issue that was making the issue harder to overcome. Specifically, he said I needed to use a bit more counter, but it should originate from the hips. It is hard to describe, but just a touch more "pinch"/"rotation" in the uphill side of your hips. This adds a weird stability and strength to your uphill leg in the garland, which is you old DH leg and new inside leg in turn transition.

#2 - He said that I was ready to crank up the edge angles, and one simple trick would do it. Simply focus on inside leg shortening (like Deb talks about in some of her vids) but do so VERY EARLY IN THE TURN. Literally WHILE YOU ARE IN TRANSITION...start shortening. I was doing it way too late.

Those were two amazingly helpful suggestions. The power came back on, no one was on the hill, and I was able to use the whole run to put some work in. The hip shift/twist dramatically improved my Garlands and transitions, but the real paradigm shift was shortening the inside leg EARLY when doing full linked turns. Over the next few runs, I found myself dragging my inside knuckles on the snow in a perfectly stacked / strong position. I was skiing a very carvy line (slow line fast), to the point that I was going uphill during my turn transitions. My toppling phase resulted in the skis going not across the hill, but substantially UP the hill. This is what you see River doing in that video.... This requires a very quick and smooth transition because gravity is pulling you away from the skis. When I loaded the ski, I was actually leaning my body DOWN the hill, not just across. This was the craziest feeling of commitment, but as long as had a quick transition, and I retracted the inside leg early, the ski would push on my body enough to keep me in equilibrium. This had the effect of bending/loading the ski dramatically earlier in the turn, which is the key to keeping things under control on steeper slopes. I am probably a ways away from being able to do this on tighter radius turns like that vid with River...but it now seems within the realm of possibility....

 

[BTWilliams]

I wanted to thank everyone for their great help & advice. Some of you make some really good suggestions that made a big difference.

It looks like I am done for the "normal" season. I was hoping to get some video to show my progress, but that did not happen.

Today I decided to just forget all the drills and work for a while, and just ski hard, and see where I stand. For Large/Mid radius turns, I think I am now at a pretty high level. I am not hip dragging yet, but just about every hard turn to the left, I am brushing my knuckles. High edge angles...and most of all, getting to the high load point in the turn before I am even through the fall line. I am even able to get into turns smoothly and crank on hard snow in the a.m. The right turns are not quite as loaded up. The final break-through was getting the confidence and edge control to start turns well before the fall line + driving forward over the new inside ski in transition. Basically....it is like throwing your body straight down the fall line just as your are switching edges in transition.... and making your skis catch you as they load up. For me, this is the secret sauce of getting high edge angles early in the turn.

Slalom turns are still a work in progress. My left leg seems weaker (patella pain from prior knee surgery), and I just can not get the pop off the ski. I find myself drifting left down the run since my left turns (right leg) are so much stronger.... Need to hit the weight room and maybe do more knee rehab type work.

I am thinking about doing a Mt. Hood ski camp in a few months...if I do...I will get some vid of me embarrassing myself in gates for the 1st time in 30+ years.....

 

[Tony S]

geepers,

Thanks for the post with content that was exactly along the lines of what I needed.... the strange thing is, I figured a lot of these same things in just the last few days. Strange how timing works out sometimes....

I have been skiing in Sun Valley for the last week. This is a unique mountain in that the average pitch is a bit steeper that most mountains, and the variance in pitch is minimal. There are very few flats, except for cat tracks. So it is a bit daunting to up your high energy carving game, but a good place to do it, because you have no choice to get things right. You have to be very careful to not let things get out of hand on the speed. Plus it has been melt-freeze this week, so parts of the mountain are blue ice much of the day.

I am big on drills, and the one base drill that I still feel does the most for me is Garlands, and getting them right. Not just looking right, but feeling right. I put in a huge amount of time doing them. Right leg uphill, I have them dialed but was still struggling to get my left leg to lead the initiation with left leg uphill. It is a dominance issue and lack of balance/confidence/control with the clutzy left left. When I get these working properly, and then go immediately do some turns....I ski much better. My general program is to do Garlands about 2/3 of a run...then some other drills (Swiss, Javelins, White Pass) and finally aggressive turns at the bottom to see how things are coming together. Rinse...repeat.

In just the last few days, I started to get a feel and rhythm for exactly what your post is about. I found myself getting high edge angles, and more importantly quick, fluid transitions that result in developing high edge angles ABOVE THE FALL LINE. This takes confidence. The confidence for me comes from all the foot/ankle control that comes from all those Garland transitions.

I really made a jump today. The power went out, and the lifts died, so they closed the mountain for a while. I was on the last lift they cleared, so I had a clear mountain with no people and was able to rip some super aggressive (at least I thought at the time) "slow line fast" carving turns. I got down to the lodge and started talking with one of the instructors. Turns out he was an ex racer from my same era (about 2 years older than me), and we raced some of the same competition in the 80s. He was watching me come down the hill, and complimented on my turns, and we started talking about technique, and what I was working on. He gave me two suggestions which were golden.

#1 - He agreed that Garlands were a good drill for developing foot/ankle/knee control that is critical to carving transitions. He said that my non-dominant left leg problems are common, and he suspected that there was body position issue that was making the issue harder to overcome. Specifically, he said I needed to use a bit more counter, but it should originate from the hips. It is hard to describe, but just a touch more "pinch"/"rotation" in the uphill side of your hips. This adds a weird stability and strength to your uphill leg in the garland, which is you old DH leg and new inside leg in turn transition.

#2 - He said that I was ready to crank up the edge angles, and one simple trick would do it. Simply focus on inside leg shortening (like Deb talks about in some of her vids) but do so VERY EARLY IN THE TURN. Literally WHILE YOU ARE IN TRANSITION...start shortening. I was doing it way too late.

Those were two amazingly helpful suggestions. The power came back on, no one was on the hill, and I was able to use the whole run to put some work in. The hip shift/twist dramatically improved my Garlands and transitions, but the real paradigm shift was shortening the inside leg EARLY when doing full linked turns. Over the next few runs, I found myself dragging my inside knuckles on the snow in a perfectly stacked / strong position. I was skiing a very carvy line (slow line fast), to the point that I was going uphill during my turn transitions. My toppling phase resulted in the skis going not across the hill, but substantially UP the hill. This is what you see River doing in that video.... This requires a very quick and smooth transition because gravity is pulling you away from the skis. When I loaded the ski, I was actually leaning my body DOWN the hill, not just across. This was the craziest feeling of commitment, but as long as had a quick transition, and I retracted the inside leg early, the ski would push on my body enough to keep me in equilibrium. This had the effect of bending/loading the ski dramatically earlier in the turn, which is the key to keeping things under control on steeper slopes. I am probably a ways away from being able to do this on tighter radius turns like that vid with River...but it now seems within the realm of possibility....

We need to recruit you to mentor the loads of people who come here from the same starting point but never make the progress you clearly have. Nice work.