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Dinosaur skied 4 days in last 20 years. Just stepped on modern skis for the first time. Yikes!

Philpug

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A few years back my mom went skiing with my sister, hadn't been on skis in about 15 years and in her mid 60's. My wife lent her her 13m R skis (had the bindings set professionally) we gave her the advice to simply roll the skis and the let the skis do the rest.
Was she 5'11" 190lb? a 13 m ski might be a viable option for a smaller women.
 
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BTWilliams

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Thanks everyone....

Sounds like an easy to initiate lower radius ski would make things easier. Plus some instruction to identify specific issues to work on. A Stockli Laser SC would be ideal, but those are impossible to find. In fact, it seems it is hard to find any skis for sale in the niche right now.... about all I could find in the category was Rossignol Hero Elite MT, (175 cm x 15m)

FYI...the Redsters I am on now are the Std ski...not the RS (Masters ski - 24m) or the FIS (30m). So they are actually 19.4m radius.

Is going from 19.4m down to 14-15m going to make that big of a difference?
 
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Andy Mink

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Welcome back. I made the jump from long, fairly straight skis to modern gear a few years back after very few days over a long period. The ski that gave me the ahah of how new skis can work for you was the Renoun Z90. It has an oversized tip that really pulls the ski into the turn. There are other skis out there that have the same type of tip that can help you get the feel of how the newer skis work. No need for a high performance ski just yet. Get the two foot skiing, wider than old school stance, and some of the other technical aspects down first and have a good time doing it.
 

oldschoolskier

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Was she 5'11" 190lb? a 13 m ski might be a viable option for a smaller women.
One of my skis are the Dynastar Slant Nose Omniglass, love playing on these things. Ideal play speed 25-45mpg (get beyond the 45 it gets scary twitchy), get below 25 still fun, but they show your flaws. Love using them to clean up my skills for GS skis without the speed. The real fun is linking ultra quick turns and feeling the pop through the transistions.

Truth be told ski the SL's in the morning and the GS in the afternoon.

I'm 6' 180lbs.

So yes they work extremely well.
 
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Nobody

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For the shorter radius skis, just remember to keep them tipped. Right or left edges is fine, but if you try to go straight the skis will wobble back and forth, randomly picking between right and left.
This, absolutely, keep in mind this. You won't be really straightlining on these skis. Always, always keep them on edge. Otherwise you will get than unpleasant wobbling feeling. And will keep wondering what is wrong with the shaped skis. In truth even a seemingly straight line will always be an arc, with huge radius, but an arc. How huge the radius, so the lesser edge (and thus approaching a straight line) will depends on the skier sensibility...but that is one of those finer points that will come with time.
Enjoy the journey!
 

LiquidFeet

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I still have plenty of issues. I am outside/DH leg dominant. It is like my inside leg is untrained and uncoordinated. Looking at my ski tracks, there are two clean deep knife edge tracks before and up to the "in fall line" phase just after turn initiation. But the inside track then fades and at the high load point in the turn (45-60 degrees past the fall line), it is all DH leg. Also, all the turn initiation feels like it is done only with the ski that will become the DH ski. It does not feel like I am getting the new inside ski on edge. My inside ski wanders a lot....

Any tips on how to get this inside ski to do something useful, and play nice with the overall progression of the turn?
Watch this, if you haven't already found it. Great info on how to use the inside leg in carving.
 

slow-line-fast

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I found a good deal on a pair of older X9 WBs, 168cm x 13.5m. I think I am going to pull the trigger and ski on those for a while...
Do it. Will help you with the longer skis, and will also be useful to have when the hill is too busy to open up the longer skis
 

Henry

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"5'-11", 190#. I bought a pair of Atomic Redster 183 / 19.4m"
"When you initiate with edge angle, holy moly the ski just does nothing for a bit."
That is the stiffest ski in this line. The less-stiff 177 in this ski model probably would be good for you after you get skilled in the new tricks and up to full speed. The even-less-stiff 172 Redster G9 would be better to train on. It takes energy to get a ski to bend. The 183 is built for the biggest, strongest, faster skier on the hill. You're not there, yet. It takes beef and speed to bend it. While turn radius matters, it only functions as the ski bends. The length of the ski matters less than the stiffness.

The more you lighten the inside ski, the more weight you put on the outside ski. The more weight on the outside ski, the more it bends. The more the outside ski bends, the better it turns you. So, feet walking width apart. Feet side by side (the more the inside is thrust forward, the more weight is on the back of that ski. No ski does well with the weight on the back.) Counter (twist the body from the hips upward toward the outside of the turn; hold the inside foot back). Angulate (bend a bit at the waist). Lighten the inside foot and tip it toward the inside of the turn as described by Francois in post #11. As you create greater angles with the snow retract the inside leg farther up...keep it light on the snow. For a drill let the inside ski tip slide on the snow while you hold the tail an inch or two above the snow. (Lifting the whole ski off the snow puts many into the back seat.) While the tail is lifted tilt the ski toward the inside of the turn--big toe side high in the air. You're turning! Do it smoothly and you're carving! Keep your arms calm. No giant pole swing. Hold your arms in a neutral position and do flick-o'-the-wrist pole taps.
 
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BTWilliams

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Thanks to all on the suggestion that I start on a shorter radius, softer ski. I ended up getting some new old stock (2021) Atomic X9 WB's x 168cm. These are a much softer, and super easy to ski. I really like them. 168s are surprisingly stable even at pretty good speeds.

I am now mostly laying clean RR tracks on easy slopes (while trying to avoid novices and not get the stink eye from Patrol). I have a relatively easier time cleanly initiating right turns, because my right leg is more "coordinated", and it is therefore easier to make a parallel initiation going right. My stance/width is not always consist, especially going left. I have learned that if you initiate with the inside ski, the outside just follows, but if you initiate with the outside ski, the inside ski does nothing, and you can easily end up A-framing badly.

I still struggle with striking a dynamic balance between anticipation (leaning the body into position while creating edge angles before you load the ski) vs loading the skis in a way that my by position is not ready for. It is strange. There is this subtle timing/balance that I struggle with when I am going slow, and trying to work on initiating with the inside ski. Sometimes I initiate the turn, but the response of the skis is less than my body was set for, and I get off balance and have to put extra weight back on the inside ski. Other times, I initiate the turn, and the skis respond quicker than I am set for, and skis load and squirt under me almost like an out of control slalom turn. My body had just not learned this subtle balance yet. The initiation during low energy turns/drills is sort of "light-switchy". Sometimes too much ski response...some times not enough....

I ride motocross, and one thing we do on dirt bikes is "catch ourself" with the throttle and the brake. When you are about to accelerate, you will shift your body forward (almost "falling") on the bike just a moment before you get on the gas. If you did not get on the gas, you would and up bent over the handlebars with your head heading towards the fender. But a slit second before that happens, your roll on the throttle, and "catch" your body with acceleration. You do the same with braking. When you are hauling it into a corner, there is a lot of effort trying to hold your body slightly forward on the bike. When you are going to get on the brakes, you basically let the bike for squirt ahead of you ("falling" back) just before you get on the brakes. Just before you are about to be too far back on the bike, you "catch" yourself with hard braking. It is all about anticipating the load, and matching the body position to the loads it WILL see in the very near future. You have to position the body before you apply the loads. I just seem to be a bit uncoordinated doing this side to side on skis so far.....especially for small loads.

When I start skiing harder, this issue goes away because I am using the pop of the ski going across the hill. The loads are bigger. This naturally creates larger early edge angles, but later edge loading. Early edge angle development does not mean you load the ski and turn early. When skiing hard, you can float across the hill,...and wait till you have a lot of angle before you actually weight the ski at then suddenly load it up very quickly. But I am afraid that if I jump ahead to this style of skiing before I have taught my inside leg what to do, then I will just end up A framing like the old days. So only make a few hard turns here and there to see how things are working. Most of the day I spend working on mundane drills like Garlands, RR tracks, etc.
 
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Nobody

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Before the RR tracks, given what you wrote about the inside leg, I would work on javelin turns and to lift the tail of the inside ski when initiating the turn...
 

LiquidFeet

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Thanks to all on the suggestion that I start on a shorter radius, softer ski. I ended up getting some new old stock (2021) Atomic X9 WB's x 168cm. These are a much softer, and super easy to ski. I really like them. 168s are surprisingly stable even at pretty good speeds.

I am now mostly laying clean RR tracks on easy slopes (while trying to avoid novices and not get the stink eye from Patrol). I have a relatively easier time cleanly initiating right turns, because my right leg is more "coordinated", and it is therefore easier to make a parallel initiation going right. My stance/width is not always consist, especially going left. I have learned that if you initiate with the inside ski, the outside just follows, but if you initiate with the outside ski, the inside ski does nothing, and you can easily end up A-framing badly.

I still struggle with striking a dynamic balance between anticipation (leaning the body into position while creating edge angles before you load the ski) vs loading the skis in a way that my by position is not ready for. It is strange. There is this subtle timing/balance that I struggle with when I am going slow, and trying to work on initiating with the inside ski. Sometimes I initiate the turn, but the response of the skis is less than my body was set for, and I get off balance and have to put extra weight back on the inside ski. Other times, I initiate the turn, and the skis respond quicker than I am set for, and skis load and squirt under me almost like an out of control slalom turn. My body had just not learned this subtle balance yet. The initiation during low energy turns/drills is sort of "light-switchy". Sometimes too much ski response...some times not enough....

I ride motocross, and one thing we do on dirt bikes is "catch ourself" with the throttle and the brake. When you are about to accelerate, you will shift your body forward (almost "falling") on the bike just a moment before you get on the gas. If you did not get on the gas, you would and up bent over the handlebars with your head heading towards the fender. But a slit second before that happens, your roll on the throttle, and "catch" your body with acceleration. You do the same with braking. When you are hauling it into a corner, there is a lot of effort trying to hold your body slightly forward on the bike. When you are going to get on the brakes, you basically let the bike for squirt ahead of you ("falling" back) just before you get on the brakes. Just before you are about to be too far back on the bike, you "catch" yourself with hard braking. It is all about anticipating the load, and matching the body position to the loads it WILL see in the very near future. You have to position the body before you apply the loads. I just seem to be a bit uncoordinated doing this side to side on skis so far.....especially for small loads.

When I start skiing harder, this issue goes away because I am using the pop of the ski going across the hill. The loads are bigger. This naturally creates larger early edge angles, but later edge loading. Early edge angle development does not mean you load the ski and turn early. When skiing hard, you can float across the hill,...and wait till you have a lot of angle before you actually weight the ski at then suddenly load it up very quickly. But I am afraid that if I jump ahead to this style of skiing before I have taught my inside leg what to do, then I will just end up A framing like the old days. So only make a few hard turns here and there to see how things are working. Most of the day I spend working on mundane drills like Garlands, RR tracks, etc.
You are very analytic and like to find the words to match your experience on snow. Sounds like you're figuring things out fast. And thankfully, since you're working on carving arc-to-arc turns, you are also safety-conscious and working on controlling slower turns alongside those warp speed turns. That's so good to hear.

Pointing your conscious mind at what the inside ski/foot/leg is doing at every initiation will help you get control of both skis. This is definitely counter-intuitive. Which you already know. That's a big step.

So there's basically two things on opposite ends of a spectrum you can do with that new inside ski/foot/leg at initiation. You can tip the ski onto its little toe edge. Or you can rotate the ski to point in the new turn's direction. Work on doing each, in isolation. Ignore the new outside ski. Each of these movements produces a different type of turns. Then blend them, then isolate them again. Versatility is the game here.

You'll still be outside ski dominant. I assume you are skiing on hard snow so that's just fine. You can train yourself to be able to pick up the inside ski at any point without losing the turn. Do the same stuff with it lifted as when it's on the snow; it will still act as the pilot with the outside ski following along doing the work.

Keep this peanut gallery informed as you progress.
 
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Chris V.

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That is some very good self-analysis.
I have learned that if you initiate with the inside ski, the outside just follows, but if you initiate with the outside ski, the inside ski does nothing, and you can easily end up A-framing badly.
Bingo! Some of us try to tell that to students, but it's a process to get it to sink in. So much better that you've recognized it on your own.
I still struggle with striking a dynamic balance between anticipation (leaning the body into position while creating edge angles before you load the ski) vs loading the skis in a way that my by position is not ready for. It is strange. There is this subtle timing/balance that I struggle with when I am going slow, and trying to work on initiating with the inside ski. Sometimes I initiate the turn, but the response of the skis is less than my body was set for, and I get off balance and have to put extra weight back on the inside ski. Other times, I initiate the turn, and the skis respond quicker than I am set for, and skis load and squirt under me almost like an out of control slalom turn.
You know, lessons tend to focus on one fundamental movement, primarily involving one part of the body--whether it's foot tipping, or hip angulation, or upper-lower body separation, or you name it. And all of that is very important. But...at some point the objective needs to be to get all of those fundamental movements working together just right. Whatever you do with your feet is going to require a corresponding balancing upper body movement. It's a matter of putting the movements together in the right proportions, timing them properly relative to one another, having them all develop at the right pace. And the mix changes depending on the turn radius one is aiming for. It's a hard thing to coach. Each skier has to figure it out individually. So again, great self-recognition here, and it seems like you know well what you need to practice.
So only make a few hard turns here and there to see how things are working. Most of the day I spend working on mundane drills like Garlands, RR tracks, etc.
That's going to put you ahead of the game. You understand the kind of dedication needed to make progress. In teaching any lesson, an instructor has to strike a balance between rigorous drills and fun. The serious student will accept the need for the rigorous drills. A minority of students really embrace that. It's important that the drills be repeated enough times to have an impact. And that they be done correctly. Any drill can easily be done incorrectly, and then it's pointless, useless, or counterproductive. Some ski school students will lack the patience to do the rigorous work on fundamentals. And guess what? They don't progress.
 
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BTWilliams

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That is some very good self-analysis.

Bingo! Some of us try to tell that to students, but it's a process to get it to sink in. So much better that you've recognized it on your own.

You know, lessons tend to focus on one fundamental movement, primarily involving one part of the body--whether it's foot tipping, or hip angulation, or upper-lower body separation, or you name it. And all of that is very important. But...at some point the objective needs to be to get all of those fundamental movements working together just right. Whatever you do with your feet is going to require a corresponding balancing upper body movement. It's a matter of putting the movements together in the right proportions, timing them properly relative to one another, having them all develop at the right pace. And the mix changes depending on the turn radius one is aiming for. It's a hard thing to coach. Each skier has to figure it out individually. So again, great self-recognition here, and it seems like you know well what you need to practice.

That's going to put you ahead of the game. You understand the kind of dedication needed to make progress. In teaching any lesson, an instructor has to strike a balance between rigorous drills and fun. The serious student will accept the need for the rigorous drills. A minority of students really embrace that. It's important that the drills be repeated enough times to have an impact. And that they be done correctly. Any drill can easily be done incorrectly, and then it's pointless, useless, or counterproductive. Some ski school students will lack the patience to do the rigorous work on fundamentals. And guess what? They don't progress.

Chris,

If I had half the understanding of how complex skills are learned, when I was a kid, I might have had some more significant success in ski racing, and other sports. But back then, no one really undersood "how to learn". Now...it seems so easy. Wax on...Wax off. It is all about building neural connections. #1...you identify which low level skills (building blocks) are lacking. #2...you prioritize (if one skill is dependent on another...you internalize the requisite skill first, dependent next) #3...you isolate those building block muscle movements (skills) and you train (drills) until they are internalized. #4...after you have all the building blocks, then you work on linking them together. #5...if you can't link them together into the overall, you probably do not have one of the building blocks down like you think you do.

There are no short cuts, even for the super talented.
 
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BTWilliams

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Before the RR tracks, given what you wrote about the inside leg, I would work on javelin turns and to lift the tail of the inside ski when initiating the turn...

Can you elaborate on why?

I can actually do Javelins pretty easy, and go outside ski to ski, carve to carve. It is almost like "skating". Step from one to the other. If fact, my first ski to ski carves about 10 days ago were going one outside ski to the other...inside ski lifted. It is when I try to "ski parallel" and get the inside ski in synch with the turn that I struggle. From my racing experience, I have very good downhill leg activation/feel/balance. And these modern carving skis....SUPER SUPER EASY to balance on the loaded DH ski. In fact...I am ALL downhill leg at the high load portion of the turn. In the 80s...downhill leg was pretty much 90% of the coaching we got. So this comes natural to me. We did not call them "Javelins" at the time, and we did not focus on lifting the tail of the ski, but we literally spent hundreds of hours per season doing "one ski" drills.

How will Javelins help me with my lack of inside leg activation...which seems to be my main issue? My inside ski is really "dumb". It seems like doing Javelins will just skip the part I have issues with, and focus on something I can already do pretty easy.
 
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Nobody

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I have learned that if you initiate with the inside ski, the outside just follows, but if you initiate with the outside ski, the inside ski does nothing, and you can easily end up A-framing badly.
Can you elaborate on why
The extract from your previous message, made me think that, despite all, you might still be skiing (trusting) on your inside ski more than you are conscious of doing. It was so for me when I transitioned and for many users afterwards. Despite me being convinced that I was turning on the outside ski, I was, in fact, still weighting a lot the inside one. Not only that , but I was transferring weight from the old outside ski (which in a "diagonal" I think you call 'traverse" only becomes the downhill skis, IMHO) to the new outside ski at the wrong time, but too late.
Had to have it physically demonstrated to my by a coach to understand that. Then started to pay more attention, and do more one ski turns drills.
I was much too slow into update and the thread has moved forward from there. So, feel free to ignore it.
 

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