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Dinosaur skied 4 days in last 20 years. Just stepped on modern skis for the first time. Yikes!

Rdputnam515

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You will advance quicker with a slalom ski - 13 m side cut radius good for this purpose. More turns per run. To learn and exploit the ski, with sl ski you should keep speed below 45 mph, below 30 mph is better.
Make sure you don't do any pivoting at transition.
Focus on tipping that inside ski; I'm not telling you not to tip the outside ski; you need to do that too, but it's usually the inside tipping that needs work.
No need to jump on that outside ski; just allow the weight to get there on its own; most of it will be there once some g force gets generated.
You just have to get used to the new relationship between tipping and turning.
IFF you were carving on straight skis, you should pick this up quickly.
Your problem has as much to do with 20 years of rust as with new equipment. I made the switch quite late from 208 cm SG skis to Fischer RC4 World Cup SC (one step down from FIS SL) with no problem, but also no 20 year gap.
It seems the faster higher G turn gives you the feedback you are looking for. It will come.

I had a little more progression time than you but went from a 2001 Volkl G3 to a Kore 99 without any issue. Just need to get back out there and figure out how the ski responds to inputs. They are way more responsive once you get used to them
 

Rdputnam515

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Can you elaborate on why?

I can actually do Javelins pretty easy, and go outside ski to ski, carve to carve. It is almost like "skating". Step from one to the other. If fact, my first ski to ski carves about 10 days ago were going one outside ski to the other...inside ski lifted. It is when I try to "ski parallel" and get the inside ski in synch with the turn that I struggle. From my racing experience, I have very good downhill leg activation/feel/balance. And these modern carving skis....SUPER SUPER EASY to balance on the loaded DH ski. In fact...I am ALL downhill leg at the high load portion of the turn. In the 80s...downhill leg was pretty much 90% of the coaching we got. So this comes natural to me. We did not call them "Javelins" at the time, and we did not focus on lifting the tail of the ski, but we literally spent hundreds of hours per season doing "one ski" drills.

How will Javelins help me with my lack of inside leg activation...which seems to be my main issue? My inside ski is really "dumb". It seems like doing Javelins will just skip the part I have issues with, and focus on something I can already do pretty easy.
If you are used to one foot drills, head down to the bunny and Drop a ski. Practice turns both ways wearing only one ski. One foot than the next. My race coach love to make us ski gates like this lol.

it should help with refiguring your uphill foot.
 
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BTWilliams

BTWilliams
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If you are used to one foot drills, head down to the bunny and Drop a ski. Practice turns both ways wearing only one ski. One foot than the next. My race coach love to make us ski gates like this lol.

it should help with refiguring your uphill foot.

The problem with this is I am old and weak feeling now compared to "back in the day". I seriously do not think I am physically capable of doing complete one ski runs right now.....even if I get the muscle memory re-established. It is a work in progress. That and the good long beginner pitch with a Tbar at our local area is currently shut down. I would have to ski the whole mountain like that. Not ready....

Maybe by seasons end....

OneSki
 
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BTWilliams

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You will advance quicker with a slalom ski - 13 m side cut radius good for this purpose. More turns per run. To learn and exploit the ski, with sl ski you should keep speed below 45 mph, below 30 mph is better.
Make sure you don't do any pivoting at transition.
Focus on tipping that inside ski; I'm not telling you not to tip the outside ski; you need to do that too, but it's usually the inside tipping that needs work.
No need to jump on that outside ski; just allow the weight to get there on its own; most of it will be there once some g force gets generated.
You just have to get used to the new relationship between tipping and turning.
IFF you were carving on straight skis, you should pick this up quickly.
Your problem has as much to do with 20 years of rust as with new equipment. I made the switch quite late from 208 cm SG skis to Fischer RC4 World Cup SC (one step down from FIS SL) with no problem, but also no 20 year gap.

I would just like to say that everything you wrote was right on the money.
*Atomic X9 WB's at 168 cm x 13.5m have been much better to progress on. These are not a race ski...more of a recreational tweener...with a high load ceiling.
*As I noted in another post, if you tip the inside ski, the outside follows, so just focus on the inside ski. The opposite does not hold true at all
*When you initiate a carve from the start by tipping, you end up with almost all the weight on the downhill ski naturally. It just progressively loads up as you pass through the fall line into the high load part of the turn.

My timing and body anticipation are gradually getting better, but still not there. Some things I have noticed:

*The best drills/exercises I have found to practice tipping initiation is Garlands, and linked RR tracks on easy slopes. In both cases, I have to concentrate hard on foot/ankle feel. Knees don't work for me. Knee's follow the foot pressure

*Are there any other drills that are suggested? I did some one ski work on cat tracks, and was able to make some turns, but the edge angles were low. Reps will improve my balance.

*When doing RR tracks very slow, or Garlands, there is a unique balance I am still struggling with. You can not be aggressive tipping the inside ski unless you anticipate the acceleration of the ski, otherwise the ski will squirt away from you without pushing on your overall body. You will "lose the ski". There are a number of things I have to do to make it work. #1 - Good forward pressure on boot tongue. #2 - Feel my feet/ankles #3 - Lean/cheat the body to the uphill a bit. Or you can think about it as letting the skis drift down during the flat portion of the Garland, just enough so you are getting out of balance. #4 - A bit of the "banana position" with hips/shoulders aligned square to the DOWNHILL ski tip. Do all these...then you "catch yourself" with the inside ski initiation before you get off balance. I have found these translate to linked turns as well. These steps are required to initiate with stronger edge angles. Note I did not say strong...because my edge angles are still probably pathetic.

*I am more right foot leg dominant than I knew. I have a harder time with Garlands with Right ski downhill. The left knee just does not want to follow instructions. My ski tracks look good...and people who have watched me say they look the same as the other way, but they are not even close. Going right (left ski DH), I can feel my weight balance is 50/50. But when going left (Right ski DH) almost all my weight is on the DH ski. So even if I try hard to initiate the tip with my left ski, most of the time I am very DH ski heavy. The ski tracks do not show this, but I can feel it is the same at all.

*The endless Garland drills have translated to ability to make solid linked RR tracks on moderate slopes. But I am still making very large radius turns, and I think this is because my initiations, while technically OK, are still slow and my early edge angles are very low. So the turn takes forever to start, and I and up with very large turn lines.

*When I take it to steeper slopes, I get going so fast (again...the ski is not really loading up till I am well past the fall line) so quick that things break down pretty fast. A few of the times I got going really fast, I was able to, perhaps through sheer luck, get into an aggressive high edge angle stong/stacked position with the DH leg barely bent, and the inside ski pulled up....so there is hope.

*Any suggestions? My guess if you are going to say keep doing what I am doing. No substitute for reps...
 
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Chris V.

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Short turns require much stronger upper-lower body separation movements. And a bunch of other stuff, LOL. A lot of people don't release promptly and assertively, kind of get stuck in the old turn.
 

Jamt

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*The endless Garland drills have translated to ability to make solid linked RR tracks on moderate slopes. But I am still making very large radius turns, and I think this is because my initiations, while technically OK, are still slow and my early edge angles are very low. So the turn takes forever to start, and I and up with very large turn lines.

*When I take it to steeper slopes, I get going so fast (again...the ski is not really loading up till I am well past the fall line) so quick that things break down pretty fast. A few of the times I got going really fast, I was able to, perhaps through sheer luck, get into an aggressive high edge angle stong/stacked position with the DH leg barely bent, and the inside ski pulled up....so there is hope.

*Any suggestions? My guess if you are going to say keep doing what I am doing. No substitute for reps...

You are not alone, I would say that the vast majority have problems making tight turns when the speed/slope increases.
The most common reason for this is lack of dynamics in the turn. In particular when you spend a lot time doing more or less static drills like rail road tracks etc there is a big risk that the turn becomes too static.
What I mean with a static turn is where you have a moment in the turn where you are not accelerating up or down, and probably also with no movement of CoM up or down.
If you approach the fall line in a static state one of two things may happen.
1. The outside ski is fully locked and the turn forces "eject" you out of the turn because the centripetal forces of the turn align with and overpower the gravity component. You are forced to release the turn prematurely in order to keep in control.
2. You are not fully locked on edge and in order to avoid the overpowering of the centripetal forces you have to make the turn radius larger. The speed will increase until it is out of control (i.e. you are going too fast in order to carve properly)

The key to avoiding this is trying to delay the onset of significant forces until somewhere close to the fall line. You can do this e.g. by angulation and having dynamics from the previous turn. Most of the edge angle increase should be before the significant forces. There is a bit of a catch 22 here because "dynamics from the previous turn" assumes you are in a series of dynamic turns.

You don't have to be on the steeps to practice this. Just go fast on a not so steep slope and see if you can bring the speed down by throwing in a couple of turns with high edge angles and lots of dynamics. I you can to this you can try it in a steeper slope.

Since you come from a previous "era" you may not use a lot of flexing to release the turns and maybe not a lot of angulation either. Both these things help with dynamics.
 

markojp

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Before the RR tracks, given what you wrote about the inside leg, I would work on javelin turns and to lift the tail of the inside ski when initiating the turn...
I'd also look at boot alignment when large left/right performance asymetries are evident.
 
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BTWilliams

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Swiss Drill!

Nothing has made a bigger difference so far. Doing this drill resulted in a phenomenal improvement, almost instantly. I guess I was not staying forward enough in transition, because doing this drill made everything work better......

1. Turn starts much faster
2. I am getting larger edge angles before I load the ski (the "floating" phase between edges is longer, more pronounced "toppling")
3. Turn radius is tighter, and it starts earlier....
4. At the high load part of the turn, I am naturally in a more "stacked" or strong position and able to simply stand on the DH ski. I have had a hard time getting into a strong position on the left DH ski...but after doing this drill...much better.

After doing this drill, I even went back and did some Garlands...and even they were improved..... My left leg when going left now leads initiation just fine. I highly recommend this drill to anyone trying to dial in their transitions, and get the skis to initiate the carve quicker once you get up on edge.
 
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BTWilliams

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I'd also look at boot alignment when large left/right performance asymetries are evident.

I re-canted my boots (old Tecnica Icon Carbons with a cant adj) to a much more neutral setting. I had a very 80s/90s set up...favoring the inside edge a lot. I flattened the ski (more "knocked knee'd" / less "bow legged") and up on the snow...I really could not feel a difference. I was quite surprised as I made a pretty big change.
 

Chris V.

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From my perspective, a big test of boot setup is ability to do one-footed big toe edge traverses, and especially one-footed little toe edge traverses.
 
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BTWilliams

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From my perspective, a big test of boot setup is ability to do one-footed big toe edge traverses, and especially one-footed little toe edge traverses.

Can you explain what one footed "big toe" and "little toe" edge traverses are? I am sort of clueless on a lot the instructional lingo..... I am from the 80s.....!
 

Chris V.

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OK, if you're traversing to the left--

Standing on the right foot only, you'd be on the big toe edge.

Standing on the left foot only, you'd be on the little toe edge.

Let us know how it goes!

P.S.--When you say you canted your boots, using a canting adjustment that's a feature of the boots, did you actually alter the lateral angle of the bottom surface of the boot, or did you just alter the lateral angle of the cuffs? Many boots have a cuff adjustment. Changing that isn't actually canting. Canting is normally done by adding wedges to the bottom of the boot, or grinding the bottom. Any further discussion this topic will quickly go down a rabbit hole, I promise you. Many threads on the topic.
 

geepers

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You don't have to be on the steeps to practice this. Just go fast on a not so steep slope and see if you can bring the speed down by throwing in a couple of turns with high edge angles and lots of dynamics. I you can to this you can try it in a steeper slope.

:thumb::thumb: Thanks for that one.
 
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BTWilliams

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You are not alone, I would say that the vast majority have problems making tight turns when the speed/slope increases.
The most common reason for this is lack of dynamics in the turn. In particular when you spend a lot time doing more or less static drills like rail road tracks etc there is a big risk that the turn becomes too static.
What I mean with a static turn is where you have a moment in the turn where you are not accelerating up or down, and probably also with no movement of CoM up or down.
If you approach the fall line in a static state one of two things may happen.
1. The outside ski is fully locked and the turn forces "eject" you out of the turn because the centripetal forces of the turn align with and overpower the gravity component. You are forced to release the turn prematurely in order to keep in control.
2. You are not fully locked on edge and in order to avoid the overpowering of the centripetal forces you have to make the turn radius larger. The speed will increase until it is out of control (i.e. you are going too fast in order to carve properly)

The key to avoiding this is trying to delay the onset of significant forces until somewhere close to the fall line. You can do this e.g. by angulation and having dynamics from the previous turn. Most of the edge angle increase should be before the significant forces. There is a bit of a catch 22 here because "dynamics from the previous turn" assumes you are in a series of dynamic turns.

You don't have to be on the steeps to practice this. Just go fast on a not so steep slope and see if you can bring the speed down by throwing in a couple of turns with high edge angles and lots of dynamics. I you can to this you can try it in a steeper slope.

Since you come from a previous "era" you may not use a lot of flexing to release the turns and maybe not a lot of angulation either. Both these things help with dynamics.

Good pointer on cranking hard turns on mellow slopes. This definitely works because when you carve, you are so efficient that you can crank hard turns and not lose speed.

I also came up with my own drill of sorts for practicing high load carves on steeper slopes that might cause speeds to get to high when learning. It combines a Swiss Drill with a J-Turn, in a very high energy fashion. The intent is to provide a LOT of time carving on the loaded DH ski, so that you can concentrate on shortening the inside leg, getting the entire body angled to the slope and achieving high edge angles. Basically, you just do ONE TURN and crank it to the limit.

Right turn practice...
1. Start off on the right side of the run, facing about 30-45 degrees down the fall line, to the left.
2. Poles locked together, in left hand.
3. Glide DH gaining good speed, while initiating a gradual carve left, back up the hill. Square your shoulders to the DH ski (moderate counter...just enough to help you easily initiate a carve) The only point of this part of the drill is to provide a good clean an realistic transition to the RH turn, which is the focus.
4. Start the transition to the RH turn. Do the Swiss Drill pole switch to the new inside hand. Bring the hips forward, and initiate the RH turn. Concentrate on achieving a lot of early edge angle and toppling, so that your RH carve starts with a lot of energy and edge angle. Feel that gradual loading of the DH ski as you come out of the fall line, and gravity starts to load you up.
5. Rip into that carve with as much energy and load on the DH ski as you can. You are only doing one turn...so just concentrate on your position and feel. Scissor the legs...get the left leg back in a strong position and shorten the inside leg. Think about that edge angle on the DH ski. You have a LOT of time to work on the feel.
6. Just keep carving as hard as you can till you are literally heading straight uphill....

That is it. Rinse and repeat...and flip it around the other way. I spent hours doing this....and then went back to the flats and linked clean lower energy carves. Then I went back to the steeper slope and let it rip. This progression worked wonders for me..... I am still learning how to shorten the turn radius with edge angle and inside leg shortening...but that is pretty advanced stuff. Need more time and practice.
 
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markojp

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I re-canted my boots (old Tecnica Icon Carbons with a cant adj) to a much more neutral setting. I had a very 80s/90s set up...favoring the inside edge a lot. I flattened the ski (more "knocked knee'd" / less "bow legged") and up on the snow...I really could not feel a difference. I was quite surprised as I made a pretty big change.
I have a hunch you're talking about boot cuff alignment, which isn't canting even if it says 'canting adjustment' on the boot.
 
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BTWilliams

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Good pointer on cranking hard turns on mellow slopes. This definitely works because when you carve, you are so efficient that you can crank hard turns and not lose speed.

I also came up with my own drill of sorts for practicing high load carves on steeper slopes that might cause speeds to get to high when learning. It combines a Swiss Drill with a J-Turn, in a very high energy fashion. The intent is to provide a LOT of time carving on the loaded DH ski, so that you can concentrate on shortening the inside leg, getting the entire body angled to the slope and achieving high edge angles. Basically, you just do ONE TURN and crank it to the limit.

Right turn practice...
1. Start off on the right side of the run, facing about 30-45 degrees down the fall line, to the left.
2. Poles locked together, in left hand.
3. Glide DH gaining good speed, while initiating a gradual carve left, back up the hill. Square your shoulders to the DH ski (moderate counter...just enough to help you easily initiate a carve) The only point of this part of the drill is to provide a good clean an realistic transition to the RH turn, which is the focus.
4. Start the transition to the RH turn. Do the Swiss Drill pole switch to the new inside hand. Bring the hips forward, and initiate the RH turn. Concentrate on achieving a lot of early edge angle and toppling, so that your RH carve starts with a lot of energy and edge angle. Feel that gradual loading of the DH ski as you come out of the fall line, and gravity starts to load you up.
5. Rip into that carve with as much energy and load on the DH ski as you can. You are only doing one turn...so just concentrate on your position and feel. Scissor the legs...get the left leg back in a strong position and shorten the inside leg. Think about that edge angle on the DH ski. You have a LOT of time to work on the feel.
6. Just keep carving as hard as you can till you are literally heading straight uphill....

That is it. Rinse and repeat...and flip it around the other way. I spent hours doing this....and then went back to the flats and linked clean lower energy carves. Then I went back to the steeper slope and let it rip. This progression worked wonders for me..... I am still learning how to shorten the turn radius with edge angle and inside leg shortening...but that is pretty advanced stuff. Need more time and practice.

Spent some time doing these today, and going left (right ski loaded) I was able to crank turns so hard that I actually ended up carving 270 degrees +..... holding the carve completely uphill, and then "over the top" till I was facing square to the fall line like my starting position. Can't do THAT skidding.....

I could not come close to doing the same on right turns. I am right handed/legged. I am just not able to get stacked in a strong position on my left ski. The confidence and feel is just not there. I probably need to do a LOT of Javelins on the left ski to develop left leg control and balance/stability in position. I am not nearly as good on the left leg as I thought.... but better than I thought on the right leg.
 
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BTWilliams

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It's just a matter of practice and getting used to it.
Don't have a head-on collision with someone following you down the hill too closely! :geek:

No joke there. Have to be super super careful doing this...and make sure there is no one even close. It is so intense that once your in it, it hard to look around you. Once you are turned up the hill it is not so bad, but when you are across the fall line you are blind, especially if you are slightly countered.

But is it crazy to see how much you can load up a ski when you are just concentrating one turn alone.
 
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BTWilliams

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"5'-11", 190#. I bought a pair of Atomic Redster 183 / 19.4m"
"When you initiate with edge angle, holy moly the ski just does nothing for a bit."
That is the stiffest ski in this line. The less-stiff 177 in this ski model probably would be good for you after you get skilled in the new tricks and up to full speed. The even-less-stiff 172 Redster G9 would be better to train on. It takes energy to get a ski to bend. The 183 is built for the biggest, strongest, faster skier on the hill. You're not there, yet. It takes beef and speed to bend it. While turn radius matters, it only functions as the ski bends. The length of the ski matters less than the stiffness.

The more you lighten the inside ski, the more weight you put on the outside ski. The more weight on the outside ski, the more it bends. The more the outside ski bends, the better it turns you. So, feet walking width apart. Feet side by side (the more the inside is thrust forward, the more weight is on the back of that ski. No ski does well with the weight on the back.) Counter (twist the body from the hips upward toward the outside of the turn; hold the inside foot back). Angulate (bend a bit at the waist). Lighten the inside foot and tip it toward the inside of the turn as described by Francois in post #11. As you create greater angles with the snow retract the inside leg farther up...keep it light on the snow. For a drill let the inside ski tip slide on the snow while you hold the tail an inch or two above the snow. (Lifting the whole ski off the snow puts many into the back seat.) While the tail is lifted tilt the ski toward the inside of the turn--big toe side high in the air. You're turning! Do it smoothly and you're carving! Keep your arms calm. No giant pole swing. Hold your arms in a neutral position and do flick-o'-the-wrist pole taps.

Henry, yep....

I jumped back on the 183 cm G9s (after about 7 days skiing the 168 cm X9 WBs) to see how much progress I have made. I can at least ski them now, but they a lot deader early in the turn...I can literally feel the length, and how much harder it is to get into the turn. Also, I literally collapse under the turn load at times, and get pushed into the back seat. I think these are just too much ski for me at my weight, current physical ability, and technique level.

How much of a difference are the 177 cm and 172 cm G9s? Lets say the 183 cm G9s are an 8.5 on the effort scale, what would the shorter G9s be? Are they noticeably softer? I feel pretty balanced on the 168 cm X9s, so I am thinking that a 172 cm pair of G9s might be the ticket, like you said.
 

Johnny V.

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Going back to your original post-your stats are similar to mine (I'm 5'10"/180) but about 20 years older. I had the G9 177 but gave them to my daughter and got the G9 183. I don't think you'd notice the difference in the 177 and I'd think the 172 would be too short for your size (although they'd be fun to play around on).

I currently have 3 pairs of 182/183 skis in my lineup-the Atomic G9 183/19.4, Stockli Laser AX 182/17.4 and an old pair of Atomic FIS Spec Doubledeck 183/23+. Obviously, the old Atomics are the hardest to turn cleanly at slow speeds. The G9s and the Stocklis feel somewhat similar and both are pretty easy to do railroad tracks on at even very moderate speeds. The G9's have better edge grip and are faster edge to edge.

I'm not even close to being an instructor or coach (just ask my wife!) but a couple of things that have worked for me is the Schlopy drill and working on pulling and keeping the inside knee back to vary the turn radius. I don't see any reason why with practice you can't make those G9 183s work for you as a fast groomer ski.
 

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