DIY Molding of MIMIC liner

[dx111]

These special instructions for the molding of Mimic liners do not yet seem to have reached each and every Atomic dealer and, at least judging from my personal experience, ignoring them does not necessarily spell certain doom for the result. I had the liners of a 2021 Hawx Prime 130s heat molded at a very reputable sports orthopedics and boot fitting establishment which also happens to be a R&D partner of Atomic for ski boot technologies.

I probably should point out that molding those Mimic liners was a mere afterthought as the primary purpose of my visit was to replace them with custom foamed liners and have work done on the shell. Once that was done, I asked for the original liners to be molded in case I ever needed to use them as a backup. This was done without the liner sock but with toe caps and padding of the usual bony protrusions. No shoehorn was used nor were cooling packs employed. Earlier, the shell had been stretched locally in the forefoot and punched extensively around the lateral malleoli, but was cold by that time and had never been heated globally (no full memory fit). As far as I could tell, the molding worked just fine, but I have not skied it and hopefully won't have to.

Now, even though I ended up choosing a different solution to address my specific issues more comprehensively, I have to say that I am quite impressed with the stock Atomic liner. It is very nicely finished and most of all has an excellent anatomic shape with better and more pronounced ankle shaping than I have seen anywhere else.

However, another innovation where Atomic could really set themselves apart and make a difference is if they were to offer their boots without liner as an option. If the liner is indeed billed at EUR 110 each, leaving them out would have brought the price of the shell only down to EUR 180.

 

[Noodler]

I wish every boot manufacturer would have an option to purchase their shells without liners. I have a garage full of brand new stock liners.

 

[erdz]

I wish every boot manufacturer would have an option to purchase their shells without liners. I have a garage full of brand new stock liners.

Not going to happen, Profit is in the liner . not the shell

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

Thanks for this and good for you on trying. In my experience most of these special tools and ovens aren't that special.

I remember when I got a pair of brand new intuition power wrap liners from a buddy for $50 quite a few years ago. I called a local shop to see what it would cost to mold them, which was $50 for the "special" intuition heater. I definitely could have afforded $50, but that price to heat a liner just pissed me off. After a little research, into the oven they went for 10 minutes, into to the shell with a plastic grocery sack to make it slide easier and $0 later I had perfectly molded liners.

I have now done 4 of my own and quite a few friends with this technique with zero problems. Some we add some fitting foam for hot spots and others mold with a thick socks for extra space. Sometimes it takes a couple times to get the fit right, but we always get it right. I know that many liners and shells are different, but I can almost guarantee they can be home with a lot of research and probably a little basic skills.

I think it is very, very rare that someone "ruins" their boots or liners, and if they do, they probably didn't do their research. Fitting and punching boots is different, and I agree a professional should usually do this if you're a hard fit or don't know your size, but I have been home fitting boots for a long time and never ruined a liner or a shell. It's a lot harder to ruin these things than people think.

 

[TDCSPRINGS]

I wish every boot manufacturer would have an option to purchase their shells without liners. I have a garage full of brand new stock liners.

Exactly! First thing I do when I get new boots is toss the liner and put intuitions in them. I will say liners have gotten better over the years, but I still haven't found a factory liner that is as warm, stiff and comfortable as a power wrap.

 

[DanoT]

I wish every boot manufacturer would have an option to purchase their shells without liners. I have a garage full of brand new stock liners.

I suspect that Surefoot buys shells only at wholesale from the various manufacturers. They then charge their customers the price equivalent of the retail boot and liner plus Surefoot adds in the price of their own custom foam liner. it's a great business model if you can get away with it, and I guess they do as they have shops at many high end resorts.

 

[PaulE]

.....This was done without the liner sock but with toe caps and padding of the usual bony protrusions. No shoehorn was used nor were cooling packs employed. Earlier, the shell had been stretched locally in the forefoot and punched extensively around the lateral malleoli, but was cold by that time and had never been heated globally (no full memory fit). As far as I could tell, the molding worked just fine, but I have not skied it and hopefully won't have to.

Now, even though I ended up choosing a different solution to address my specific issues more comprehensively, I have to say that I am quite impressed with the stock Atomic liner. It is very nicely finished and most of all has an excellent anatomic shape with better and more pronounced ankle shaping than I have seen anywhere else.

Interesting read, thank you. You didn’t notice how your liner got cooked by any chance? Heating method, time and such would be great to hear about.

I skid the boots today. First hike of the season (hurray!). I'm really happy with them. Made my old faithful Camox feel like a not so old yet still faithful Camox The Camox simply felt nimbler, as the tail would release easier.

I did however forget one hotspot I have, and that started to give some pains after some hours of walking. Need to revisit boot fitter or DIY it. Leaning towards DIY but I’m going to have a talk with the boot fitter first, see what he thinks. This is on me however, not the boot. I have this small bony bump on the lower part of my right foot leg, heating was not enough to fix that apparently. Need some padding there during the molding it seems. If I DIY Ill share the process here.

 

[Philpug]

I did however forget one hotspot I have, and that started to give some pains after some hours of walking.

Hours of walking? These are ski boots, not hiking boots. The question is, does that area give you pain when you are skiing?

 

[PaulE]

Hours of walking? These are ski boots, not hiking boots. The question is, does that area give you pain when you are skiing?

Haha - a bit "norwegian english" there – meant two hours. And by walking I meant ski touring, skinning, walking with skis on feet. Hope that clears things up.

Skinning up I played around with buckle settings and noticed that if the two top buckles where unbuckled, and I buckled up the third with medium pressure, it would hurt in that area.

Yea unfortunately it got worse when I buckled up for skiing down.

 

[ScottB]

Good thread PaulE. I am a DIY type of person and I am getting a new Mimic liner to use in my Hawx XTD's 130's. The orange stock liner that came with the boot is good for touring, but a bit thin for resort skiing. I will be going through the heat fitting process sometime this season. I am also a heat transfer engineer and would like to share my take on this subject.

Heat molding a Intuition liner is pretty straight forward as long as you get the temp right and the time. The liner is a consistent material throughout and all of it can take the same temp or higher temps. The mimic liner, however, is not the same material throughout, so it might need different temps in different spots. I don't know the details of the material, but If the mimic material needs a higher temp compared to the toe area, oven heating isn't the way to go. I suspect in the short term there won't be anything noticeable. with using a oven. The long term life of the liner is what I would expect to suffer due to over heating. I think you chose the best solution, find a shop that will use the Atomic process for a reasonable price. If no one will, then its a cost versus risk personal decision. Getting info helps minimize the risk.

I bought my boots from a local shop and paid a hefty sum for them, but they will do all heat molding for free, as many times as I want it done. I had it done once when new, and when I get the new liners I will go back to them again. The info you posted will be very useful to me to make sure they have the current "mimic specific" equipment.

 

[PaulE]

... I don't know the details of the material, but If the mimic material needs a higher temp compared to the toe area, oven heating isn't the way to go. I suspect in the short term there won't be anything noticeable. with using a oven. The long term life of the liner is what I would expect to suffer due to over heating. I think you chose the best solution, find a shop that will use the Atomic process for a reasonable price. If no one will, then its a cost versus risk personal decision. Getting info helps minimize the risk.

I bought my boots from a local shop and paid a hefty sum for them, but they will do all heat molding for free, as many times as I want it done. I had it done once when new, and when I get the new liners I will go back to them again. The info you posted will be very useful to me to make sure they have the current "mimic specific" equipment.

Hey!

I'm glad to hear you find the thread useful. I’m already looking forward to hear about your future heat fitting process. I’m guessing with your specialism you can really shine some light on the subject!


Yea, I might have gone for the best opt. Don’t know. It seemed easy, and the process the boot fitter followed was nothing like in the video. But maybe there are more than one way to do it, that's what I hope. Spending money on an inferior job + some hours of driving for a boot fitting job that’s not according to instructions = lower quality, would be a bummer. On the other hand, I am happy with the result, so I guess it does not matter.

-Agreed, information is a great way to avoid a failure. Good luck with your boots, let us know how it works out!

Let’s go into the heating of the liner, it is something of interest. Of the top of my mind I believe this is what info has come to the surface:

1. @onenerdykid (your words are mentioned here so I'm tagging you) recommended using their oven. He said the following: "Our oven will need to be used at the temperature & duration we specify- normal heat stacks or hot air blowers aren't good enough because they heat from the inside out and the real Mimic material is near the outside." I do not know if their oven has different temperature zones for the Mimic material areas as you suggest might be needed. You bring up a good point, @ScottB.

2. The boot fitter I visited said he followed instructions from Atomic. From what I could see, the machine he used for heating liner heated it from the inside to the outside (correct me if I’m wrong, I kind of hope I'm wrong).

3. Baking time in oven is 5 min according to video I posted. Preheat for 3 min. From what I can see on the vid it’s an oven with a fan in the back of it - air circulation and possibly the heating element. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the oven does not have temperature specific zones (again, correct me if I’m wrong).

The following kind of goes into this:

@Uncle-A "Is this liner a one and done fitting process, because some liners can be done more than once. If it is one and done it seems like a higher rate of risk."

I have an answer for you. I was listening to the Blisters podcast "A very deep dive on ski boots", they speak about the Mimic liner. The question "how often can Mimic liners be reshaped" was asked; here is the answer:

“I stopped doing after 15.

The material, the Mimic material, will always move and keep moving. However, the foams, once you start doing it that many times, will break down for sure. So, we recommend you shouldn’t do this more than 5 times if you want to keep the foams intact, the linings intact and all that stuff. “

He also mentions the following, which I think should me mentioned for the thread’s sake “In the hands of a competent boot fitter you do it once and your good.”

From that I gather the weakness is not the Mimic material, but the foam, when it comes to repeated heating at the correct temperature.

https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/...s-part-4-liners-ramp-angle-forward-lean-ep-88 @ 1.17.14

Cheers,

Paul

 

[onenerdykid]

Hi Paul,

The lovely voice you heard on the podcast is mine

The process I discussed in earlier conversations was the fitting process for the just the Mimic liner, without the Memory Fit process. Liner only = use the oven- a heat stack or hot air blower will not soften the plastic elements of the heel/ankle, tongue or calf- only the foams. This was our original goal but it just didn't work and why we went to our oven.

If a shop is doing Mimic in combination with Memory Fit there are two options depending on how many ovens the shop has:
Plan A- shop has two ovens and the liners are heated in one oven and the shells in the other, both are combined.
Plan B- shop only has one oven & a hot air blower - and this is the process that was used on your set up.

Plan B works with a hot air blower because an oven is used on the shell and the heat from the heated shell is enough to finish off what the hot air blower started.

Mimic liners can be re-done a few times if needed (just like Memory Fit or with Intuition). The Mimic material itself will always shape as needed, but at some point the EVA foams will simply compress too much, and Intuition has the same problem.

To demonstrate how moldable the liner is, how it holds it shape, and how it can be reshaped I always do this to a liner in my fitting clinics:

I heat a liner up in our oven, squeeze the heel and let it cool in this shape, and then I start the fitting process with this liner and it comes out looking like someone's foot rather than what you see in the picture. I don't recommend people do this with their own liner but it gets the point across. I heated and reheated this liner about 15 times before I changed it out. We recommend that a liner not be heated more than 5-6 times though, just to keep the foams fresh and happy.

 

[PaulE]

Hi Paul,

The lovely voice you heard on the podcast is mine

....

Hey!

I know.

Ah - I see. That is good to hear! Plan B have done the trick.

I have a question for you. I forgot one hotspot when I was getting the boots fitted at the boot fitter... It's a bump on the lower right leg as you can see on the image. So, I’m wondering, will the Mimic adapt in time so I can simply continue w/o redoing the molding? If you got yourself into an equal situation, how would you go about fixing it?

 

[ScottB]

Thanks Onenerdykid for the info. I had it backwards with the oven heating. Since the mimic material is on the outside of the liner and the oven heats from the outside in, its what you want. Getting the various areas of the liner at the right temp is the goal, whatever works best to do that is the right tool for the job. I bought a replacement Lange liner a few years ago and it was heat molded using a heat gun/tube set up. I assume the inside of the liner was the critical area based on that approach.

 

[PaulE]

@onenerdykid Oh, and another thing - what is your take on a stick under toe during to elevate it during modling process? With or without stick? And why? (thinking specificly about the Ultra boot/mimic liner now as boot fitter said it was instructed not to use one, that pokes my curiosity )

 

[Slim]

I wish every boot manufacturer would have an option to purchase their shells without liners. I have a garage full of brand new stock liners.

And as a Bikefitter, I wish bikes were sold without saddles, cranks, handlebars and stems. I do see why the sales guys would hate that though

 

[onenerdykid]

Hey!

I know.

Ah - I see. That is good to hear! Plan B have done the trick.

I have a question for you. I forgot one hotspot when I was getting the boots fitted at the boot fitter... It's a bump on the lower right leg as you can see on the image. So, I’m wondering, will the Mimic adapt in time so I can simply continue w/o redoing the molding? If you got yourself into an equal situation, how would you go about fixing it?

Is this bump a normal thing for you or has it recently appeared? Is it sensitive/easily angered?

 

[onenerdykid]

@onenerdykid Oh, and another thing - what is your take on a stick under toe during to elevate it during modling process? With or without stick? And why? (thinking specificly about the Ultra boot/mimic liner now as boot fitter said it was instructed not to use one, that pokes my curiosity )

When heating or forming liners only, I generally like to elevate the toes of the boot. This forces you to flex forward a bit and it drives the heel/ankle into the heel pocket created a nice shape.

When forming a shell that has been heated, you do not want to elevate the toes with a piece of wood as this will cause the shell to bend and you'll have a rockered boot. You could elevate the toes on an inclined ramp, but since this promotes flexing it can stress connections between the cuff and shell and elongate those connection areas which can lead to slop developing where it absolutely shouldn't (think screwed connections between the cuff and shell).

Your boot fitter did it right

 

[PaulE]

Is this bump a normal thing for you or has it recently appeared? Is it sensitive/easily angered?

Noticed it last season when I starting to use a pair of old BD Method 110 as I broke my Maestrale RS2. The Method wrapped around my legs well, and I'm guessing the better fit caused more pressure on the bump. It painful enough to be annoying, but not painful enough to keep me from skiing. I dont know for how long I've had it, its hard like bone so I'm guessing its been there for some time. It gets red and soar after a hike, almost normal again after two-three days days.

 

[PaulE]

When heating or forming liners only, I generally like to elevate the toes of the boot. This forces you to flex forward a bit and it drives the heel/ankle into the heel pocket created a nice shape.

When forming a shell that has been heated, you do not want to elevate the toes with a piece of wood as this will cause the shell to bend and you'll have a rockered boot. You could elevate the toes on an inclined ramp, but since this promotes flexing it can stress connections between the cuff and shell and elongate those connection areas which can lead to slop developing where it absolutely shouldn't (think screwed connections between the cuff and shell).

Your boot fitter did it right

This is great to read, thank you for the insight.

Fantastic.