Don't Think, Meat. Just Throw.

[ELDoane]

Anybody out there have problems with their brain getting in the way of their skiing? I was out the other day, working on trying to break the sound barrier on the groomers, when a ski instructor buddy of mine started making fun of my narrower stance. He invited me to leave the 90s behind and widen up. Old habits die hard, I suppose.

So, I started thinking about stance and driving knees and all manner of tipping and tilting and every other technical thing I've picked up over the decades. And, subsequently, started to ski like excrement.

Two hours later, same instructor buddy skis up behind me and says "Good work widening up, laying some real trenches on that run!" I smiled, and then realized that I'd spent that entire run listening to my tunes and admiring the view over the clearing valley. Didn't think one thought about technique. Not the first time that's happened, either. To paraphrase the Dali Maverick, "If you think, you're dead."

My natural habitat is off piste and you won't find me anywhere near a groomer once the snow gets here. In the trees, I think about technique all the time, but it's all about pole plants, balance points, pushing myself to stay on aggressive lines. It's only on the groomers that I start to think about edge angles and stuff and manage to think myself into a circle.

The obvious answer is to just start drinking heavily, but the associated loss of motor control has some unwanted consequences.

So, anyone out there got a similar problem? Getting better without thinking about getting better is beyond my current level of zen mastery.

 

[dbostedo]

Getting better without thinking about getting better

I don't think you get better without thinking about it. But I think you ARE better when you get to the point that you stop thinking about it, and it's just ingrained.

 

[Saintsman]

I don't think you get better without thinking about it. But I think you ARE better when you get to the point that you stop thinking about it, and it's just ingrained.

This. It's like learning to ride a bicycle - when you start you're thinking about EVERYTHING, and as a result you can barely stay upright. But if you picked a cycle up tomorrow you'd just get on and go, and not be thinking about ANYTHING. The whole learning process is how you get from the first stage to the second.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The four stages of mastering new things...

1. unconscious incompetence
2. conscious incompetence
3. conscious competence
4. unconscious competence

 

[mulva28]

What's wrong with a narrow stance? I can't imagine a wider stance would help in the bumps, trees or powder. Also looks way cooler. Forget the 90's embrace the 80's.

 

[scott43]

I was playing hockey with some better fellas than me..and I was getting beaten a bit by a couple of better players..playing defence..and my d-partner comes over, ex-AHL player..and he says "I can see you thinking in there..don't think..anticipate and react.." Can't say it helped..but..he seemed to think it would..

 

[newboots]

I find that suddenly thinking is usually the cause of my falls. I never used to know why I fell, and couldn't answer when people asked. But the last time I fell (Stratton, if it matters!), I was thinking about how I should be planting poles. Prior to that I was enjoying going downhill and being with friends!

Pole plant thoughts are the frequent offenders; others include similar issues: arm position, outside leg weight, inside leg whatever.

 

[ELDoane]

What's wrong with a narrow stance? I can't imagine a wider stance would help in the bumps and trees.

That's exactly what's at work. I spend a good 90% of my time in the bumps and trees every season, happily skiing with my narrow stance and pivoty turns. It's only during the early man-made part that I break out the carvers and make the best of the corduroy. I instinctively keep my feet narrow like I do off piste and my instructor/racer pals tell me its inhibiting my ability to get to higher edge angles, initiating my turns earlier, and ultimately tighter carves.

It's the skiing version of a first world problem, but there you have it.

 

[newboots]

don't think..anticipate and react..

I think I know what he meant, but it seems that anticipating requires some brain activity (thought)!

 

[mulva28]

I instinctively keep my feet narrow like I do off piste and my instructor/racer pals tell me its inhibiting my ability to get to higher edge angles, initiating my turns earlier, and ultimately tighter carves.

I see. I think when we're talking high edge angles then the skis have to widen up naturally from pulling back the inside leg. Initiating turns earlier will help with getting tighter carves when you need them but also set you up for a nice long turn if you don't have to shed any speed. During transitions I'll be narrow and also in shorter turns, but pull that inside leg in on long turns and it will look like a wider stance. On the lifts I still enjoy seeing the type of skiing I grew up with when we had straight skis though

 

[scott43]

I think I know what he meant, but it seems that anticipating requires some brain activity (thought)!

Yeah..I think I was getting paralyzed by thought process..like, with the better players you don't have time to go through 5 different scenarios and worry about the whole ice. You just play what's in front of you and pick the best percentage play. Like, don't get fancy when you're in over your head. Simple and consistent.

 

[Henry]

In the earlier years of this century the theme of the year was to widen the stance to shoulder width. I don't know what shoulders have to do with feet, but that was it. I don't know what shoulder width had to do for the guy with narrow hips and broad shoulders or the woman with narrow shoulders and a broad hip bone structure. Maybe if they said to have the feet under the femoral head--but who can find that? Of course, there was no way to lighten the inside foot with the feet spread way out. Then they said to widen the stance for stability. If one's boots fit properly, where is the instability? In any good technical manual there is a section of changes from previous versions. New items are detailed, and old items are listed as superseded. I have not seen anything like this in PSIA publications. Things get superseded by omission, but no one tells some of the instructors.

My thought is that the stance should be walking width where our body has been balancing itself since each of us was a wee tot. Don't mess with Mother Nature.

We can only think of one thing at a time. There is no multi-tasking, there is just dividing concentration into slices for different topics. Think of one thing to work on, and keep at it until you achieve LF's "4. unconscious competence." Then move to the next thing you want to work on.

 

[mister moose]

So, I started thinking about stance and driving knees and all manner of tipping and tilting and every other technical thing I've picked up over the decades. And, subsequently, started to ski like excrement.

Instead of thinking of such a lengthy laundry list that turns most mortal brains to mush, try just one thing to focus on at a time and build on that once the pattern is learned into automation.

This touches on how we move once we practice to competency. In piano for instance, how do you know how to position the fingers on your hand, how do you know where to place your arm so the fingers strike the correct keys, how do the fingers know how to change to so many different successive chords, and then play a complex string of chords and keys to perform the entire song?

I don't know the answer biologically, but I know how it feels, and how it thinks. It is a level of low conscious pattern management, the conscious can step in at any time and modulate the pattern, or make a small correction. Most musicians think in packets, meaning when practicing they find it easier to start at the beginning of a verse or phrase, it is far harder to start mid verse or harder still mid measure. The memory is in a string, and it is difficult to enter that string at random places when playing from memory.

I think skiing is very similar. We build packets with practice, linking into longer and more complex phrases until the entire turn set flows.

 

[Henry]

I instinctively keep my feet narrow like I do off piste and my instructor/racer pals tell me its inhibiting my ability to get to higher edge angles, initiating my turns earlier, and ultimately tighter carves.

It's the skiing version of a first world problem, but there you have it.

"Wider stance" in turns needs to be more tightly defined. Here's a photo of one of the greatest skiers ever, Marcel Hirscher. Is this a wide stance, or a narrow stance with the inside leg retracted for clearance? I think it is the latter. You'll see the same thing from all great skiers.

 

[scott43]

I think skiing is very similar. We build packets with practice, linking into longer and more complex phrases until the entire turn set flows.

You should write a book..

 

[tomahawkins]

What's wrong with a narrow stance? I can't imagine a wider stance would help in the bumps, trees or powder. Also looks way cooler. Forget the 90's embrace the 80's.

Marcus Caston and Chris Tatsuno agree.

 

[motogreg]

flow state. Like, can you please, kindly, just DIG IT.

 

[mister moose]

"Wider stance" in turns needs to be more tightly defined. Here's a photo of one of the greatest skiers ever, Marcel Hirscher. Is this a wide stance, or a narrow stance with the inside leg retracted for clearance?

Yes. There is a difference between spreading and lifting the femur (thigh bone). They both produce separation, but they are not the same.

 

[scott43]

flow state. Like, can you please, kindly, just DIG IT.

Yeah man. I think..and I'm far from a top line skier..I feel like the ability to incorporate dynamic 3d moves is the step to enlightenment. In mountain biking, there is a definite line where people have to unlock from rigidity to having the ability to be dynamic and monkey the bike around. I feel like skiing is the same. Being able to use the vertical in your ski toolbox opens up so much. Being comfortable with the skis losing contact with the snow..knowing where you're going. That's a great feeling. I wish I could be as aggressive as them fellas are.

 

[mulva28]

inhibiting my ability to get to higher edge angles, initiating my turns earlier, and ultimately tighter carves.

Yes. There is a difference between spreading and lifting the femur (thigh bone). They both produce separation, but they are not the same.

I think that's what @ELDoane 's instructor friend was getting at. Keeping it narrow for the sake of keeping a narrow stance won't let you get those angles and tighter turns at higher speeds. You need to get that inside leg pulled back to feel those G's!