@Philpug look at the difference angles between the inside ski and the outside ski and he is one of the in the world.
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Don't Think, Meat. Just Throw.
- Thread starter ELDoane
- Start date
Aren't all turns initiated at edge change? There is no early, there is no late, there is your chosen track and the edge change. There could be a ponderous edge change, or a pause on a flat ski. But there is still a moment in time when the new edge gets applied from the previously flattened ski. Are you really talking about the rate of edge change?
I think stance width is just like edge angle. You modify them to what gets the desired result. Skiing is not about separate skills, each in their own little box. Skiing is about blending for effect.
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- Nov 29, 2017
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This photo is a great image to aspire to emulate. But guess what, the ”mere mortals” of us don’t have the flexibility and range of motion to allow us to execute this level of edge angle execution.If I ever find myself in this position I hope I don't start thinking about the difference in edge angles between my right and left ski. I also hope someone is there to take my picture
Kind of analogous to the best swings on the PGA Tour, most golfers can’t match these swings due to physical limitations (flexibility).
The good news is we can still ski and play golf well by trying to incorporate these movements and positions, but most of us can’t duplicate because of physical and flexibility reasons.
At least that’s my excuse(lol).
Oh, I agree, when that picture was taken, he was pretty good, better than all, not as good at none.@Philpug look at the difference angles between the inside ski and the outside ski and he is one of the in the world.
It is making me rethink my skiing a bit, looking at a similar angle, while I am not getting as low as these two, my concentration has been to match edge angles, and maybe that was misdirected and I should work on opening my stance up at this point in the turn and pressuring that outside edge a little more and shortening the inside one, this might be part of my limitation of getting lower in the turn with more angulation.
Maybe that's what Bode was getting at.
Are you comparing yourself like Denzel Washington/Equalizer to Bruce Lee/Dragon? Your hand is near the snow, you can already beat up 10 Russian Mafia with your bare hands/hardware equipment. How much more do you want???Oh, I agree, when that picture was taken, he was pretty good, better than all, not as good at none.
It is making me rethink my skiing a bit, looking at a similar angle, while I am not getting as low as these two, my concentration has been to match edge angles, and maybe that was misdirected and I should work on opening my stance up at this point in the turn and pressuring that outside edge a little more and shortening the inside one, this might be part of my limitation of getting lower in the turn with more angulation.
View attachment 153613
I'm guessing a little between the lines, and seeing you start the turn with a flatter ski "to get the turn started". Once the turn is established, the rotational forces allow you to create higher edge angles, there is now something to lean against. You can now pressure the ski as well as edge it, the edge grabs, the ski bends, and that lovely slicing the track feeling results.
I've heard many instructors talk about moving down the hill, moving the hips downhill of the skis, center of mass crossing the skis, or other similar descriptions when talking about better turn initiation. I haven't heard much on 1) how far do you move and 2) why you do this and 3) where exactly you're moving to.
This is something I've been stewing on for a while.
I think moving the hips downhill is just one way of saying (not very descriptively) move the hips downhill in such a way as to both position them where they will need to be once the turn has started, and to position them so that they build immediate pressure on the ski once on the new edge. In other words, if the hips or COM, your choice, travel in a direction that is different than the skis are pointed and converging, and the skis are on edge, immediate force results. The COM is accelerated (directional change is acceleration) towards the new direction of the skis. Boom, instant pressure to the skis. I've said before on this board that one thing that differentiates an advanced skier is knowing where to place your body in advance of needing it there. This is how effective early phase turning happens.
At a certain point you can't match ski angles as your boot will dig into the snow and release the inside ski, booting out.
I think of Pauls position here as showing a lot of vertical separation, but very little horizontal separation, if he had his feet wider than hip width horizontally he would struggle to flex his inside leg enough to achieve those angles.
Marcel Hirscher, inside ski's edge angle is not as high as outside ski's angle.
Paul Lorenz, same thing.
At this point in the turn, if either of these guys lifted their inside knee away from the snow in order to intentionally get it closer to the outside shoulder, as advised in another thread, that inside ski would lose even more of its edge angle. Just sayin'.
The question is do you feel the need to get that low. I don't in my skiing and I don't see any reason for others unless they are running gates.Oh, I agree, when that picture was taken, he was pretty good, better than all, not as good at none.
It is making me rethink my skiing a bit, looking at a similar angle, while I am not getting as low as these two, my concentration has been to match edge angles, and maybe that was misdirected and I should work on opening my stance up at this point in the turn and pressuring that outside edge a little more and shortening the inside one, this might be part of my limitation of getting lower in the turn with more angulation.
View attachment 153613
I am a believer the more tools you have in your chest of knowledge, the more rounded you can be. So, need? No. Want? Absolutely. You might not want to, but I do.
That may be the difference between 75 and whatever age you are.
Done some stewing myself. And came to practically an opposite conclusion to the bolded bit.
The thing I don't want to do is have immediate pressure on the ski once on the new edge. New mantra is patience. Let the edge angle build in the top part of the turn (1/3?) and only then begin angulate progressively which engages the outside ski. Yes, it's about projecting the body to the right place.
Was working on this last on snow - 18 long months ago.
So very keen to get back on snow and continue the experimentation. 
The Canadian Ski Instructors Association use a 5 step model for physical skill development. (5 beats the 4 steps from the post of @LiquidFeet
)Initiation - being introduced to the skill
Acquisition - rough form begins to develop but lacks consistency, precision, flow.
Consolidation - form is correct in stable and easy conditions but may fall apart in more difficult situations
Refinement - form is consistent even in demanding conditions and movements are automatic, may still be room for fine tuning.
Creative Variation - form is near ideal even in complex, demanding situations, shows in personal style, can be adapted to novel situations and athlete is typically self-reliant in development.
Or I Am Confused, Really Confused.
In practical terms...
Medium to longer term: plenty of guidance and external assessment is required early in the development, then mileage and repetition with frequent verification check-ins to move into refinement. And finally on to creative variation where some can carve hip to snow whilst drinking a chai latte. Without spillage.
Shorter term: 3 runs focusing on just one aspect/cue we want to work on. The other aspects may... eh... suffer somewhat. Only give them enough focus to stop falling over. Then one run having fun, focusing on nothing in particular. Repeat. Many, many times. Then pick another aspect - it'll probably already be tomorrow by then. Or the day after.
No. Domestic bliss and some social responsibilities.
Borders remain open for the time being.....
So you'll have to do some extra turns for me, please.
It's going to be a short trip this year.
Patience is fine... we're talking about different turn radii. Letting it build produces a greater radius than building from the get-go.
Thread Starter
TS
Well, I don't know which part of this thread worked, but things improved a little today. I managed to focus some on vertical vs horizontal separation while I was trying to keep up with the MMSC racer kids on free ski and managed not to wreck or suck too bad. Those little *$^#@ can really haul.
I did say to hell with fighting my natural narrowish stance and focused more on maintaining an attacking mindset and tight turns. Of course, it was also flipping glare ice on most of the hill today despite 3-5 of new snow thanks to the horde of scrapers out there. I spent the majority of the day skiing a tight 6 foot wide corridor on the side of the trail where the snow still existed. That was actually pretty nice.
Bottom line, I think I've learned that I need to think THEN ski rather than think AND ski. Works for me at least.
I did say to hell with fighting my natural narrowish stance and focused more on maintaining an attacking mindset and tight turns. Of course, it was also flipping glare ice on most of the hill today despite 3-5 of new snow thanks to the horde of scrapers out there. I spent the majority of the day skiing a tight 6 foot wide corridor on the side of the trail where the snow still existed. That was actually pretty nice.
Bottom line, I think I've learned that I need to think THEN ski rather than think AND ski. Works for me at least.
Well radius is determined by edge angle - the more we tip the ski the more it can bend it. The way I understand it (and seemed to work for me last time on snow) was that the longer I can hold off angulating at the top of the turn the more the CoM moves inside and edge angle builds (primarily through inclination). Angulation then adds more edge angle but it also tends to bias our CoM to the outside of the turn hence we stop moving inside and indeed as angulation continues we begin to come out of the turn. The hips map have moved closer to the snow (and mine sure have plenty of room to drop further
) but there's more mass above the the GRF vector.So the turn ends up with a tighter radius than if engaging the ski earlier.
My understanding is coming from the vids of Lorenz/McGlashan (the Projected Production guys), Gellie/Robertson (the Big Picture Skiing crew) so maybe it only works for Southern Hemisphere skiers.
Anyway, that's what I'll be working before too long.
Be interested to hear how your approach is going.
A moment in time. What just happened? What's about to happen? Are skis now converging after appex? Did outside ski just slip? Don't read too much into it.
Also, IMHO, let your skis find there own width; don't force them narrow or wide, unless you are trying to break the opposite forcing habit, in which case you need more help than I can offer.