Dryland training--inline skates don't really carve. Quad skates better?

[InTheGlades]

Getting ready for a big ski trip, I recently tried the rollerblade dryland ski training/skate-to-ski stuff, and I'm wondering if quad skates would be better than inline skates.

It seems like the inline skates act like straight, no sidecut skis. I tip them over to initiate a turn and they don't curve across the slope like I'm used to when carving turns on skis. Do they end up feeling more like shaped skis as you get better with them?

Even during rollerblade skate-to-ski video on the parallel turns drill, they mention that skates, unlike skis, have no sidecut, so the turn comes from femur rotation/pivoting not angulation/edging/engaging the sidecut. I think that's why the turns on skates felt super weird to me. My inside leg kept stopping the turn unless I lifted it onto the front or back wheel to pivot around. Is that because I'm new to all this and not trusting the skates enough to angle the inside skate hard? Or is it just the downside of skates not having sidecut? The outside skate does turn when I lean it over and pressure it so maybe it's a matter of practice and similarly leaning and pressuring the inside skate. But I don't want to develop any weird habits training like this. I noticed I was lifting the toe of my inside leg to get it on one wheel to make the turn pivot more easily.

Anyone else run into this? I guess there are rockered inline skates, too. I was skating a pair of Macroblade 80s for reference.

I crammed my feet into my wife's quad roller skates to compare and they seem to act a lot more like sidecut/shape skis. Does it make more sense to get a pair of them for dryland training? I noticed a couple people have tried to improve on the inline-skates-don't-carve issue--the Harb Carvers and Skiroad skates--but it seems like a pair of quads would do the trick. Though I guess I couldn't lean them over as far as inlines. What do you think?

 

[cantunamunch]

Getting ready for a big ski trip,

Welcome

I recently tried the rollerblade dryland ski training/skate-to-ski stuff, and I'm wondering if quad skates would be better than inline skates.

Not really, no. Quads are like super-short radius fat skis.

I tip them over to initiate a turn and they don't curve across the slope like I'm used to when carving turns on skis. Do they end up feeling more like shaped skis as you get better with them?

Yes ...but they will feel like shaped skis when the inline skates are used on flat terrain.

Even during rollerblade skate-to-ski video on the parallel turns drill, they mention that skates, unlike skis, have no sidecut,

This is a misconception of how skates turn. Skates turn by misaligning the wheel self-righting torque to the axis of travel. Skate Santa Barbara had a very detailed explanation of this. The short form explanation is that the tipped wheel has a shorter rolling radius and becomes like rolling a cone.

You can actually affect this behaviour but changing out from speed wheels to hockey wheels and back again. You can also affect it by changing the durometer of your wheels - softer wheels will engage a turn more easily.

Some inline skates also have adjustable rocker - variable distance to the ground - I see you're aware of that. You can do a pseudo rocker by putting used wheels in the first and last position on the frame, with the middle being new.

If you really want to do this on non-flat terrain, I suggest you change to very grippy wheels (softer and with a hockeyish shape).

so the turn comes from femur rotation/pivoting not angulation/edging/engaging the sidecut.

That just tells me your source isn't a skater.

Here's the thing: skier sources will all try to put you on downhill terrain as soon as possible. Skater sources will recognise that proper skating -on the flats- has the same motion components as downhill skiing.

My inside leg kept stopping the turn unless I lifted it onto the front or back wheel to pivot around. Is that because I'm new to all this and not trusting the skates enough to angle the inside skate hard?

Yes. Also, your weight is too far inside the turn; you're not stacking on your outside skate properly.

This is why the first thing you should do is practice A-frame turns on flat ground, proceed to parallel turns on flat ground, and only proceed to parallel turns on tilted terrain after you can do a lunge turn on flat ground.

If you keep practicing with inlines or quads on tilted terrain before you can do this , you will build an A-frame, a dropped shoulder, and shoulder over-rotation into your skiing.

I have said it before, I will say it again:

All the elements of a parallel ski turn can be practiced on inlines (or quads) using forward motion on flat terrain.

This is not a joke. Rec skates behave like 8-10m radius carving skis; racing inlines are closer to 15m.

I used to be infamous for drawing 20 foot chalk circles in flat parking lots and insisting students skate around them - without letting the outside skate leave the chalk - as fast as possible. Gets the hips and shoulders in exactly the right plane for lunge turns

Or is it just the downside of skates not having sidecut? The outside skate does turn when I lean it over and pressure it so maybe it's a matter of practice and similarly leaning and pressuring the inside skate. But I don't want to develop any weird habits training like this. I noticed I was lifting the toe of my inside leg to get it on one wheel to make the turn pivot more easily.

You're trying too hard too soon, with too great a slope angle. One good test for proper stacking on skates is being able to glide 20-30yds in a straight line on one foot.

I noticed a couple people have tried to improve on the inline-skates-don't-carve issue--the Harb Carvers and Skiroad skates--but it seems like a pair of quads would do the trick. Though I guess I couldn't lean them over as far as inlines. What do you think?

The Harb Carver is out to solve a different problem - low coefficient of friction between wheels and pavement.

The unfortunate truth is that, on outdoor pavement, *no* skate wheel - whether inline or quad - has grip comparable to a steel ski edge has on snow. This is another reason why taking inlines or quads to hills to practice ski-analogous motion is a counterproductive idea.

The only thing that has that level of grip is indoor skate wheels used on hard polyurethane-surfaced tracks.

 

[Yo Momma]

^^^^ What he said! Also once you get better, find a good corporate parking lot with a mellow downhill. Set up a slalom course w/ cones and use ski poles w/ rubber tips.... Practice till security kicks you out!

Also start out w/ softer/smaller wheels for more maneuverability. I use 80mm / 78A durometer. Go bigger 90 - 100's and harder wheels 80's + for road work and conditioning.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

I would say 99.9% of skaters can't work the outside edge of the inside skate when they first start out. Nothing to do with the skates; it's just physically difficult. The fact that you sound like you're comfortable riding the inside edge of the outside skate, but you're getting tripped up on the inside skate would make me suspect that that's at least part of the issue. Would agree with cantunamunch that if you're doing it on a slope, it's a better idea to go back to flat. Being able to do technically good, flat, slow turns is a huge challenge with a lot of pieces; you don't need to add slope or speed to get the benefits.

 

[cantunamunch]

^^^^ What he said! Also once you get better, find a good corporate parking lot with a mellow downhill. Set up a slalom course w/ cones and use ski poles w/ rubber tips.... Practice till security kicks you out!

*whisper it* Garage-cross year round FTW! *whisper it *

 

[InTheGlades]

Welcome



Not really, no. Quads are like super-short radius fat skis.



Yes ...but they will feel like shaped skis when the inline skates are used on flat terrain.



This is a misconception of how skates turn. Skates turn by misaligning the wheel self-righting torque to the axis of travel. Skate Santa Barbara had a very detailed explanation of this. The short form explanation is that the tipped wheel has a shorter rolling radius and becomes like rolling a cone.

You can actually affect this behaviour but changing out from speed wheels to hockey wheels and back again. You can also affect it by changing the durometer of your wheels - softer wheels will engage a turn more easily.

Some inline skates also have adjustable rocker - variable distance to the ground - I see you're aware of that. You can do a pseudo rocker by putting used wheels in the first and last position on the frame, with the middle being new.

If you really want to do this on non-flat terrain, I suggest you change to very grippy wheels (softer and with a hockeyish shape).




That just tells me your source isn't a skater.

Here's the thing: skier sources will all try to put you on downhill terrain as soon as possible. Skater sources will recognise that proper skating -on the flats- has the same motion components as downhill skiing.



Yes. Also, your weight is too far inside the turn; you're not stacking on your outside skate properly.

This is why the first thing you should do is practice A-frame turns on flat ground, proceed to parallel turns on flat ground, and only proceed to parallel turns on tilted terrain after you can do a lunge turn on flat ground.

If you keep practicing with inlines or quads on tilted terrain before you can do this , you will build an A-frame, a dropped shoulder, and shoulder over-rotation into your skiing.

I have said it before, I will say it again:

All the elements of a parallel ski turn can be practiced on inlines (or quads) using forward motion on flat terrain.

This is not a joke. Rec skates behave like 8-10m radius carving skis; racing inlines are closer to 15m.

I used to be infamous for drawing 20 foot chalk circles in flat parking lots and insisting students skate around them - without letting the outside skate leave the chalk - as fast as possible. Gets the hips and shoulders in exactly the right plane for lunge turns




You're trying too hard too soon, with too great a slope angle. One good test for proper stacking on skates is being able to glide 20-30yds in a straight line on one foot.



The Harb Carver is out to solve a different problem - low coefficient of friction between wheels and pavement.

The unfortunate truth is that, on outdoor pavement, *no* skate wheel - whether inline or quad - has grip comparable to a steel ski edge has on snow. This is another reason why taking inlines or quads to hills to practice ski-analogous motion is a counterproductive idea.

The only thing that has that level of grip is indoor skate wheels used on hard polyurethane-surfaced tracks.

Wow. This is extraordinarily helpful, thanks! I should say that I was doing this on flat ground or on a basketball court near me that has maybe a .5-1 degree pitch. My usual carving skis have a 17m radius, so I guess that matches up decently with the rec inline skates I have. I was definitely trying to race through the progressions. Though I am getting ready for a Japan trip so that will all be fat skis in the pow so maybe quads aren't a bad idea.

cantunamuch, are there any sources you recommend for good drills/progressions, especially your 20 foot circle drill? I was using the rollerblade skate to ski program. They're the ones who talked about skates having no sidecut.

 

[cantunamunch]

cantunamuch, are there any sources you recommend for good drills/progressions, especially your 20 foot circle drill? I was using the rollerblade skate to ski program. They're the ones who talked about skates having no sidecut.

ICP have a standard progression that pretty much every school will follow at Level 1 - https://www.inlinecertificationprogram.org/courses/level-1

(The A-frame turn is notable in there because it teaches students that turning is possible to either side with tipped skates and weight shift and no femur rotation)

I will agree with @LuliTheYounger that control of the little-toe-edge of the inside skate is not a trivial skill. Even advanced skaters need constant practice, witness:


(They're using a crossover move, you can just use a scooter to start with, like the little girl at 2:30 does)

I was using the rollerblade skate to ski program. They're the ones who talked about skates having no sidecut.

I love Rollerblade, truth and no lie, but sometimes they're *ahem* pushing the envelope of what students can do or learn quickly or learn without coaching.

 

[InTheGlades]

These are fantastic, thanks so much! I also noticed that even when I was practicing A frame turns on flat, my inside leg felt like I was dragging some of the skate wheels sideways. Is that also a result of not stacking and putting more weight on the outside leg? Or not leaning the inside leg into the turn?

 

[cantunamunch]

These are fantastic, thanks so much! I also noticed that even when I was practicing A frame turns on flat, my inside leg felt like I was dragging some of the skate wheels sideways.

Purely from your description, I would look for signs that you were trying to assist/tighten the turn on the weighted skate instead of just waiting for it to happen. OFC, not having seen it,

 

[LuliTheYounger]

If you have an ice sheet anywhere near you, most of them offer Learn To Skate classes for pretty reasonable prices. In some ways I feel like it's more useful to skiers to get basic skate edge drills with a real coach, rather than trying to jump in and DIY everything. One of our speed coaches pointed out the other day that good technique on skates doesn't necessarily feel intuitive or "good" – and often it feels straight up bad at first – which makes it really hard to intuit what's right from wrong when you don't have anyone watching.

 

[scott43]

If you're learning on ice, please wear a helmet and elbow pads...

 

[scott43]

This is kinda my hockey warm-up but i cram it into 5 mins. Not the crossover stops at the end though..

And I throw these in for a few minutes..

EDIT: I'm not nearly as smooth as these fellas are...
EDIT EDIT: you can see why you don't do the top eyelets up too much..
EDIT EDIT EDIT: what a classic barn in the first vid!

 

[neonorchid]

@InTheGlades, I couldn't make it past your 2nd paragraph and skipped all responses ... too many notes!
What I'll say is:
Forget X-Games antics and fancy little weenie frame and wheeled slalom run around dixie cup ice cream cones. It's not about trying to mimic carving a turn - It is about just skating, better yet, straight line (pace line with drafting), skating for speed which inherently uses/works the same muscle groups in a very similar manner as skiing that is the real value of inline skating to maintain fitness for alpine skiing. Miuscle memory does the rest. The better your technique becomes the better the cross training for Alpine skiing.

 

[JFB]

I haven't seen them IRL, but the videos of Skiroads look very promising for better dryland carving. Edited to add that I do love my Rollerblades, just haven't gotten around to trying Skiroads.......