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Edge Angles

Pete in Idaho

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Would like get some pointers/suggestions on getting more edge angle. I am 78yrs and don't or can't seem to get my knees angulated like I used to. Is there another way or ways to achieve more edge.

Skiing on groomers; Elan xti88, 178cm, 1degree base and 3 degrees side. Would rate myself as an advanced skier and ski almost anywhere but mainly would like to get a little more edge on groomers, something I have been skiing a lot this year. Powder has been scarce.

Thanks
 

Philpug

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I'd start with a narrower ski. To an extent even a 88mm ski still wants to be in the snow, not on it. Something in the mid 70mm range might be more the ticket to get the sensation you are looking for.
 
Last edited:

geepers

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Would like get some pointers/suggestions on getting more edge angle. I am 78yrs and don't or can't seem to get my knees angulated like I used to. Is there another way or ways to achieve more edge.

Skiing on groomers; Elan xti88, 178cm, 1degree base and 3 degrees side. Would rate myself as an advanced skier and ski almost anywhere but mainly would like to get a little more edge on groomers, something I have been skiing a lot this year. Powder has been scarce.

Thanks

Hey, sounds like the same mission I'm on! :cool:

First up, a couple of questions:
1. Assume the skiing task is medium to wide radius carving turns on the groomers. Is this right?
2. Why do you want more edge angle? For more grip? Or more performance from the skis? Or...?
3. Why the focus on knee angulation? A whole heap more edge angle can be obtained through inclination and by separating/angulating at the hips. And probably with much less effort.
 

AtleB

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My father is 70 and is experiencing some of the same. I can tell from looking at his skiing that for the last couple of years he has adapted his skiing to his less nimble self.
1. he has slowed down a bit, no longer doing double blacks
2. narrower, softer skis with shorter turn radius
3. angulation more from the hips and full body lean, less from knees.
I also try (not very successfully) to get him to warm up before his rides.
 

Rod9301

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Yes, actively shorten the inside leg,
And also, there's no such thing as one angulation, knees do no bend laterally.
If you rotate the hips towards the outside ski and lean your upper body towards the outside ski, you will have most of the weight on that ski, then keep shortening the inside leg and you will have great angles.

How do you know if most of the weight is on the outside ski?
Lift the inside ski. If you can, you're good.
If you can't, more upper body towards the outside ski.
 

Chris V.

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It's a fact of life that as we get older, we tend to lose range of motion and strength. We're not necessarily condemned to stiffness in our movements, but success may require increased attention to stretches, and to exercises to maintain or improve mobility.

Fundamentally, there's not a lot of mystery to getting edge angles--it's inclination plus angulation. Inclination is always going to be the largest contributor--and here I define inclination functionally as the angle between vertical and a straight line drawn through the base of support and the center of mass. I don't mean banking, which would be inclination without angulation. Inclination comes naturally, it's just what's needed to stay in balance against centripetal force. What's needed to increase edge angle further--significantly past the "critical angle"--is angulation. As has been written about extensively, there are several contributors to angulation. The two main ones are "knee angulation" and "hip angulation."

Knee angulation does exist, but the term is misleading. As Rod9301 notes, the knees don't much bend laterally. Instead, what we call knee angulation, and what can give an illusion of the knees bending that way, is a turning of the femur in the hip joint accompanied by an opposing turning of the lower leg relative to the foot, through the subtalar joint (accentuated by a bit of tib-fib rotation). The result is that a line drawn from the hip joint to the toes runs to one side of the knee, offset. However, too much dependence on knee angulation can place excessive stress on the knees. Others have noted that it can also actually block upper-lower body separation (or counteraction). Knee angulation is nevertheless important for fine adjustments to edge angle, and for preventing washout of the outside ski. Others have noted that initiation of and fine control of knee angulation is promoted by the skier being in touch with his subtalar joints, and triggering movements with foot tipping.

Hip angulation has the potential of contributing a much larger component to total angulation. Here is where it's critical to have range of motion in the hip joints, and good muscular control over movements in those joints in every direction. Have a look at https://skierlab.com/hip-flexibility-in-skiing/ . This presents some introductory ideas on stretching to promote freedom in the various planes of motion. Then have another look at the Mikaela video posted above. You might see her engaging in active hip leveling. To create hip angulation, shortening the inside leg is essential, but it's important not to allow that to lead only to banking, or to angulation created only through a bend in the spine. Active hip leveling will require that the skier have access to sufficient degrees of abduction and adduction through the hip joints. It will also require a component of muscular strength to move into and sustain abduction and adduction. These are movements we don't engage in so much in our everyday sedentary lives. Finally, good inside foot management is needed to keep the inside ski from wandering away, which will lead to the skier using it as an outrigger and leaning to the inside of the turn, thus wrecking the benefits of all that work aimed at creating angulation. This requires a certain amount of muscular effort to create adduction of the inside leg, keeping it close to the outside leg.

And yes, get skinny skis, they place less stress on the knees and just in general require less effort to tip them up on edge.

I think these are a few points to work on. Undoubtedly there are many others.
 

Noodler

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Would like get some pointers/suggestions on getting more edge angle. I am 78yrs and don't or can't seem to get my knees angulated like I used to. Is there another way or ways to achieve more edge.

Skiing on groomers; Elan xti88, 178cm, 1degree base and 3 degrees side. Would rate myself as an advanced skier and ski almost anywhere but mainly would like to get a little more edge on groomers, something I have been skiing a lot this year. Powder has been scarce.

Thanks

@Chris V. nailed it (and saved me a whole lot of typing). What I would like to add (with a healthy does of concern) is that higher edge angles, in turn require higher levels of balance. You need to be comfortable with your Base of Support being offset from your upper body. Watch most skiers and they're either not comfortable if their skis aren't "under" them or they're leaning into the hill (banking their entire body). As we age our balance is increasingly challenged. Developing stronger balance on your skis will take some time and training. You're not going to just flip a switch and do some certain movements and magically have higher edge angles. You will need to train your brain to trust. There will be new forces at work you may have never felt before. How to manage those forces and stay in balance will be the challenge for your brain to learn. Take it easy out there. :)
 

Jamt

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I have not posted in a while.
Here is a higher edge angle progression I use quite often on youth, but it should work on older people too.

Do the following using continuous movement. NEVER in a static position, I cannot emphasize this enough.
1. inclinate as much as you can in long smooth carved turns
2a. 1 and touch snow with inside hand
2b. 1 and touch snow with both hands (skip this if too hard)
3. previous and try to have balance on outside ski, progressively
4. variants with brushing/skidding, delay tipping of outside foot
5. add hip angulation, move towards touching the outside boot with outside hand
6. focus on relaxing through transition until "setting the turn" by tensing core and other joints.
7. combine everything and play around with your normal turn. Vary the terrain.
 

Rod9301

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For a variety of reasons, i ski now just on 112 mm skis, katanas, metal for resort and carbon Backcountry.

It seems to me that is harder to achieve high edge angles in these skis, 24m radius than on my slalom or gs skis.

Does this make sense or it's my imagination?
 

Wilhelmson

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2b. 1 and touch snow with both

I thought we were taking the weekend off until i saw this. I dont care so much for angles just want to be a better skier.
 

Jamt

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Welcome back, @Jamt. Missed your posts.
How is it out there? You coaching this season?
Thanks LF. I took a coaching job with the national ski federation a few years back and I guess that's why I have not been posting for a while. This season I'm just doing some local club coaching and skiing a lot more for my own pleasure.
Skiing is good this year, lots of snow. Perhaps a bit more people because of covid (people staying home instead of going to the alps).
 

Steve

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It’s always great to hear from you @Jamt One of my favorite people over all these years.
 

Jamt

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For a variety of reasons, i ski now just on 112 mm skis, katanas, metal for resort and carbon Backcountry.

It seems to me that is harder to achieve high edge angles in these skis, 24m radius than on my slalom or gs skis.

Does this make sense or it's my imagination?
In my experience it depends totally on the surface. On ice wide skis are definitely harder to edge higher. On soft snow narrower skis can be hard to edge a lot because the snow does not support them.
However, I do prefer a wide ski with a more modest radius, maybe 18-19 m or so. 24 requires a pretty high speed to ski with "poppy" turns
 

James

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In my experience it depends totally on the surface. On ice wide skis are definitely harder to edge higher. On soft snow narrower skis can be hard to edge a lot because the snow does not support them.
However, I do prefer a wide ski with a more modest radius, maybe 18-19 m or so. 24 requires a pretty high speed to ski with "poppy" turns
Great to see you posting Jamt!
Didn’t you post something once on edge angle and lower leg inclination of wide skis vs narrow?

In terms of the OP, I think you have to also focus on the inside movement of the knees into the turn. Francois alluded to it. Movement should start in the feet/ankles, but with age maybe proprioception of that has decreased. Either way, at high angles and non wcup type turns, ie., very long outside leg/low to the snow, the knees will be inside.
 

Jamt

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Great to see you posting Jamt!
Didn’t you post something once on edge angle and lower leg inclination of wide skis vs narrow?

In terms of the OP, I think you have to also focus on the inside movement of the knees into the turn. Francois alluded to it. Movement should start in the feet/ankles, but with age maybe proprioception of that has decreased. Either way, at high angles and non wcup type turns, ie., very long outside leg/low to the snow, the knees will be inside.
Thanks, and yes I think I did on epic. I think it was related to what you say in you second paragraph, you have to tip a lot more to get the knee inside the force line starting at the edge and going through the CoM. Off course this is on hard snow, on soft snow the force is much more centered, which is probably one of the reason that I don't find that wider skis are harder to edge in soft snow.
 

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