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Electronic ski instructor

oldschoolskier

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Looking at the video and the snow spray pattern, they are in the backseat and pushing the turns with their bum. Additionally watching it shows angulation and maybe g forces achieve, it does not show correct upper body position.

While this may be a indication of how you are skiing, ie achieving turns, it definitely does not define how well you are skiing with correct body position or for that matter body mechanics.

The biggest issue with a device like this is that it can/will train improper stance and movement and hard set it into muscle memory because it only, which hinders future development.

Something I had learned early on in high level sports, you can do extremely wrong motions to achieve the desired result, unfortunately the lead to a dead end in future development.

So IMHO while a great concept (and maybe even great product), it still requires a great instructor to teach the correct motion and positions to maximize balance.

Side note, if one of these (in the video) was a high level instructor, I would disappointed if they were mine in a lesson.
 

jimtransition

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Niseko/Queenstown
Looking at the video and the snow spray pattern, they are in the backseat and pushing the turns with their bum. Additionally watching it shows angulation and maybe g forces achieve, it does not show correct upper body position.

While this may be a indication of how you are skiing, ie achieving turns, it definitely does not define how well you are skiing with correct body position or for that matter body mechanics.

The biggest issue with a device like this is that it can/will train improper stance and movement and hard set it into muscle memory because it only, which hinders future development.

Something I had learned early on in high level sports, you can do extremely wrong motions to achieve the desired result, unfortunately the lead to a dead end in future development.

So IMHO while a great concept (and maybe even great product), it still requires a great instructor to teach the correct motion and positions to maximize balance.

Side note, if one of these (in the video) was a high level instructor, I would disappointed if they were mine in a lesson.

Interested who you are taking lessons with, not many instructors around who ski better than the guys featured in the video.
 

oldschoolskier

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Interested who you are taking lessons with, not many instructors around who ski better than the guys featured in the video.
I am surprised how far back he sits and is pushing his tails, looking at the stance I would suggest that an ACL is in the making under the right conditions and equipment combinations (phantom foot).

I guess its like swimming and whether you where taught by a true swim coach or swim instructor. Both get you to swim, one is for efficiency and speed, the latter to swim and look good at what is perceived to be good swimming.

As to instructors, three which played a major roll:

Initial instructor (lifetime) was Austrian (dad), yes ski pole across the butt if I did it wrong, Old french Canadian two weeks in my mid-teens (Sutton) , lot of extreme stuff, help set importance of balance (in all planes), considering how much he drank at night he skied the pants of anyone, later (mid 20’s) got luck enough get a level 3 national coach to fill in understanding and details, he learn as much about balance and commitment from how I skied, as I learned how to understand effects of the ski differences (video analysis) and how to adapt which help much later for me (early shapes where just starting to hit the market, I transitioned much much (20 years) later from the older straights, couldn’t get a ski I liked the feel of so couldn’t justify the money, mostly non race ski wet floppy noodles on demo days, back on race skis, though fairly there is some good non-noodle consumer stuff out there now).

I see the differences of old and new, having transitioned “recently” what you got away with safely on straights is a bad idea now, side cuts are great making it easy for carving but sitting back slightly with bent knees is an injury waiting to happen (phantom foot). The device doesn’t recognize this a good instructor will. Just say’n.

:popcorn:
Foot note: Avitar is me in Austria (yes I was born there) I started walking....I started skiing, that’s how it was.
 
Last edited:

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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I am surprised how far back he sits and is pushing his tails, looking at the stance I would suggest that an ACL is in the making under the right conditions and equipment combinations (phantom foot).

I guess its like swimming and whether you where taught by a true swim coach or swim instructor. Both get you to swim, one is for efficiency and speed, the latter to swim and look good at what is perceived to be good swimming.

As to instructors, three which played a major roll:

Initial instructor (lifetime) was Austrian (dad), yes ski pole across the butt if I did it wrong, Old french Canadian two weeks in my mid-teens (Sutton) , lot of extreme stuff, help set importance of balance (in all planes), considering how much he drank at night he skied the pants of anyone, later (mid 20’s) got luck enough get a level 3 national coach to fill in understanding and details, he learn as much about balance and commitment from how I skied, as I learned how to understand effects of the ski differences (video analysis) and how to adapt which help much later for me (early shapes where just starting to hit the market, I transitioned much much (20 years) later from the older straights, couldn’t get a ski I liked the feel of so couldn’t justify the money, mostly non race ski wet floppy noodles on demo days, back on race skis, though fairly there is some good non-noodle consumer stuff out there now).

I see the differences of old and new, having transitioned “recently” what you got away with safely on straights is a bad idea now, side cuts are great making it easy for carving but sitting back slightly with bent knees is an injury waiting to happen (phantom foot). The device doesn’t recognize this a good instructor will. Just say’n.

:popcorn:
Foot note: Avitar is me in Austria (yes I was born there) I started walking....I started skiing, that’s how it was.
Might you be specific about where you see back seat skiing? I've watched the video in slow motion, and in all but perhaps 1 or 2 turns, by Tomas Mical, the skier was pretty much dead center at the apex of the turn. What I saw was extremely refined skiing, where the maximum pressure was high in the turn (near the apex), with a major push arising from that pressure of the CoM across the hill and taking the energy out of the bottom of the turn into the top of the next -- that push is coming from centripetal force, not from any push of the leg. Pretty much textbook current skiing.

Also, at least in what I saw, the only place I saw a push on the ski was in a hockey stop.

So, might you take the video and link to the spots where you saw something different?
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Might you be specific about where you see back seat skiing? I've watched the video in slow motion, and in all but perhaps 1 or 2 turns, by Tomas Mical, the skier was pretty much dead center at the apex of the turn. What I saw was extremely refined skiing, where the maximum pressure was high in the turn (near the apex), with a major push arising from that pressure of the CoM across the hill and taking the energy out of the bottom of the turn into the top of the next -- that push is coming from centripetal force, not from any push of the leg. Pretty much textbook current skiing.

Also, at least in what I saw, the only place I saw a push on the ski was in a hockey stop.

So, might you take the video and link to the spots where you saw something different?

Take a look at the guy's turns starting at about the :40 mark. He does approximately 5 turns and the irony is that the "coach" even tells him "keep your weight forward"... and then even more ironic is when it says "great job" when he hasn't actually done it. Now I'm sure the audio is not directly related to what the sensors had for him during those turns (it is basically just a commerical after all), but those turns had some fore/aft struggles.

Now Kaylin actually has pretty good management of her fore/aft over her feet, but I still don't like the way she chooses to transition (carefully worded to avoid another thread closure ;) ).

My biggest concern with this device is that you really must commit to it for your boot setup. It has enough thickness that you cannot just drop it into any well-fit boot. You're going to have to make some mods to either your footbed or the bootboard to accommodate the space it needs.
 

oldschoolskier

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Take a look at the guy's turns starting at about the :40 mark. He does approximately 5 turns and the irony is that the "coach" even tells him "keep your weight forward"... and then even more ironic is when it says "great job" when he hasn't actually done it. Now I'm sure the audio is not directly related to what the sensors had for him during those turns (it is basically just a commerical after all), but those turns had some fore/aft struggles.

Now Kaylin actually has pretty good management of her fore/aft over her feet, but I still don't like the way she chooses to transition (carefully worded to avoid another thread closure ;) ).

My biggest concern with this device is that you really must commit to it for your boot setup. It has enough thickness that you cannot just drop it into any well-fit boot. You're going to have to make some mods to either your footbed or the bootboard to accommodate the space it needs.
Thank you...
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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There's something not right about Tomas' fore/aft balance? Really?




I'm not watching 3 more videos when the discussion was regarding the original video and the 5 turns I pointed out in the original video. If you want to discuss those 5 turns then I'm all for it. I never made any pronouncements about this guy as a skier in general... just those 5 turns.
 

jimtransition

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I am surprised how far back he sits and is pushing his tails, looking at the stance I would suggest that an ACL is in the making under the right conditions and equipment combinations (phantom foot).

I guess its like swimming and whether you where taught by a true swim coach or swim instructor. Both get you to swim, one is for efficiency and speed, the latter to swim and look good at what is perceived to be good swimming.

As to instructors, three which played a major roll:

Initial instructor (lifetime) was Austrian (dad), yes ski pole across the butt if I did it wrong, Old french Canadian two weeks in my mid-teens (Sutton) , lot of extreme stuff, help set importance of balance (in all planes), considering how much he drank at night he skied the pants of anyone, later (mid 20’s) got luck enough get a level 3 national coach to fill in understanding and details, he learn as much about balance and commitment from how I skied, as I learned how to understand effects of the ski differences (video analysis) and how to adapt which help much later for me (early shapes where just starting to hit the market, I transitioned much much (20 years) later from the older straights, couldn’t get a ski I liked the feel of so couldn’t justify the money, mostly non race ski wet floppy noodles on demo days, back on race skis, though fairly there is some good non-noodle consumer stuff out there now).

I see the differences of old and new, having transitioned “recently” what you got away with safely on straights is a bad idea now, side cuts are great making it easy for carving but sitting back slightly with bent knees is an injury waiting to happen (phantom foot). The device doesn’t recognize this a good instructor will. Just say’n.

:popcorn:
Foot note: Avitar is me in Austria (yes I was born there) I started walking....I started skiing, that’s how it was.

That's great you learned to ski early and had good coaches from the start, I would suggest you look at some more modern ski technique videos. That flexed knee is really essential in order for full range of lateral movement. The guys in the carv videos are not the very best (imho) but they are definitely very skilled and respected instructors.
 

geepers

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Wanaka, New Zealand
I'm not watching 3 more videos when the discussion was regarding the original video and the 5 turns I pointed out in the original video. If you want to discuss those 5 turns then I'm all for it. I never made any pronouncements about this guy as a skier in general... just those 5 turns.

RB showing plenty of knee flex leading into the the grippy part of the turn.


Anyone else had to do the ski your boots only thing (starting around the 38 second point? Had to do this on a workshop last season. Instructive. Good luck not tipping face forward in the snow if at all forward.
 

T-Square

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The CARV looks interesting. How does it get points across to the skier? I heard it say "keep your weight forward." Now how many of us instructors have said that in all different types of ways; then we watch our students bend at the waist and do all sorts of contortions that are not effective? I can’t see this as an only thing you need. I see it as an assistive device in conjunction with an instructor/coach providing the technical know how to student. Feed back is great, but it needs to be tailored to the student. Also the student needs the knowledge of what to do with the feedback. That’s where the professional ski instructor comes into play.
 

oldschoolskier

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@jimtransition I watch both GS and SL WC racers to see what is applicable with skis, back then and now, hasn’t failed me yet. The instructors provided the understanding it be able to decipher what is said, what you see and most importantly what you are or are not doing.

@T-Square nails its it pretty good, the knowledge of understanding of the instruction or lesson must first be taught to a certain degree before simple directions can be understood. A canned response does not or can not adapt to the pupil to convey this meaning.
 

oldschoolskier

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I'm not watching 3 more videos when the discussion was regarding the original video and the 5 turns I pointed out in the original video. If you want to discuss those 5 turns then I'm all for it. I never made any pronouncements about this guy as a skier in general... just those 5 turns.
I’ll back you in this one, Vol 7 at the beginning you see his mistakes in carving better because of the camera angle, he leads with his outside shoulder and drops and pulls back the inside. Yes he has good ski and edge feel which is why he gets away with it, a less experienced skier would be sliding out as this is what causes the back seat condition we see in the 5 turns, just not clearly enough.
 

Mike King

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The CARV looks interesting. How does it get points across to the skier? I heard it say "keep your weight forward." Now how many of us instructors have said that in all different types of ways; then we watch our students bend at the waist and do all sorts of contortions that are not effective? I can’t see this as an only thing you need. I see it as an assistive device in conjunction with an instructor/coach providing the technical know how to student. Feed back is great, but it needs to be tailored to the student. Also the student needs the knowledge of what to do with the feedback. That’s where the professional ski instructor comes into play.
Yep, it is a useful compliment to instruction, not a substitute IMHO.

To use the device, you need earbuds or a helmet with headphones that attach (with a wire or wirelessly) to your phone. The modes I find most useful are the "monitor" and "drill" modes. For the monitor mode, you select a metric, such as fore/aft ratio, outside/inside pressure, edge angle, parallel index, etc. There will likely be additional metrics in the next software update, due out shortly. For each turn, the software will issue a score shortly after the completion of the turn. So, for fore/aft, the score might be 70, meaning that the center of balance along the ski was 70% forward/30% aft. You can decide yourself what you'd like to see, but Carv suggests the target should be between 50 and 60 based on their analysis of "top ski instructors" data, presumably their ski ambassadors. Their ambassadors include a number of Level 4 instructors, such as Tom Gellie, Tomas Mical, and demo team members such as Eric Lipton and Jonathan Ballou (although Ballou is no longer part of their program).

The current drills include 1000 steps, balance, carving, pivot slips, and outside ski turn. I've only done the balance, carving and outside ski turn drills. They have 20 levels, and you have to be successful at the lower level to unlock a higher level. For the balance drill, for example, you have to score successful turns within the target fore/aft metric in 16 turns to move to the next level. As the levels increase, the range of acceptable fore/aft pressure, at phases of the turn, becomes tighter, and the edge angle at which turns are score must be higher. For each turn, the software gives a sound that either denotes success or failure. If a sequence of turns isn't successful, the software will make a suggestion, such as "maintain balance through the turn," "move a tad back," or "you are in the backseat." I've only made it through level 19, in part because we don't have sufficient terrain open to be able to lay down sufficient high angles. Or it could be that my skiing needs improvement.

There are other items that are potentially useful, but they require some study and they have some limitations as they represent an average of the turns in a run. So they show tendencies, rather than what happened in a specific turn. They still can provide some insights though. So here is a screenshot of a run I made yesterday:

IMG_2785.PNG


My Carv sensors have a problem with rotation and replacement sensors are being shipped to me under warranty. This is the summary page for a run, and it gives an overall score (ski:iq) as well as scores on four aggregate metrics: balance, edging, rotary, and pressure. Moving into the edging area, the information is further broken down into a graph that shows the averages of edge creating in the phases of the turns for both the inside and outside ski as well as a series of metrics:
IMG_2786.PNG
IMG_2787.PNG


You can see that my left footed turn (the right turn) is stronger than the right footed turn. Looking at the graph, you can see that I hold the edge angle on my left foot longer than on my right. But the inside and outside skis are edged pretty symmetrically -- you can see this both in the graph and in the edge symmetry metric.

The pressure metrics/graph looks like this:

IMG_2788.PNG


This run was pretty decent for pressure management, so there's not a lot to break down here. You can see that I was achieving pretty early pressure -- it's coming close to the apex of the turn. And it was relatively similar between the right and left turns. The big area for improvement is the pressure smoothness. I suspect my issue is the quickness with which I've been flexing the outside leg to topple into the next turn. But that's an area for me to still explore.

So, in summary, Carv provides a lot of data and information that can be used in assessing your ski performance. I don't think it is a substitute for ski instruction (well, competent ski instruction). The monitor and drill modes can be used to compliment instruction, and provide a way for a skier to practice with feedback -- the cues are external, which research shows to be the most effective in reducing learning time and retention.

The advanced metrics are more challenging to analyze, and probably are better suited to more advanced skiers. Personally, I think this is a useful tool for me. I think it might be a useful tool in teaching as well.
 

LiquidFeet

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@Mike King thanks for going to the trouble of posting all that. It makes it obvious that the product offers useful information.

I assume it wants to know a bit about you and uses this data in some way. Did it require you to input your age, gender, weight, height, and blood pressure?
 

Steve

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They have 20 levels, and you have to be successful at the lower level to unlock a higher level......... I've only made it through level 19....

Only level 19 out of 20? What a slacker! Just kidding of course. Great detailed info Mike thanks. And I'd say 19 out of 20 is nothing to shake a stick at!
 

Sunnysloper

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@Mike King Thanks for posting your CARV data and commenting on it. It really helps me to see how to interpret the data CARV produces. Can you tell me how you knew your Rotary Sensors weren’t working right?

I’ve been using Carv for about a week but haven’t really figured out how to use it to improve my skiing. Some of the data it reports seems incoherent. For example my wedge turns score in the 70’s on the “Parallel Index” while my attempts at good parallel turns score much worse. Maybe it‘s a gross problem with my skiing, hopefully it’s a sensor issue

The fore/aft balance trainer and monitor are the features I’ve used the most. Like Mike said, it scores highest if a skier is dead middle (50) or a bit forward (60) on the ski during the turn. This feels back to me, especially in short turns, but I’m trying to take CARV’s advice and improve my scores by standing more in the middle of the ski. Strangely, my CARV Ski:I.Q.™ scores for my short turns are pretty good, within in a couple percentage points of the top of the leaderboard, while my balance scores are very poor, in the 30’s (top instructors score near 100) with a fore/aft number in the high 60’s (should be mid 50’s)

Other observations:

I have a stronger turn to the right but I already knew that.

Terrain and ski choice make a pretty big difference in Ski:I.Q.™ score. In my case Mammoth Blue/Black groomers (such as they are with this dry start) and master’s GS type skis score best.

There was definitely enough material in the sensors to change the fit of my boots. Buckle adjustments fixed most of it.

The cuffs of my boots had to be removed to get the sensors in them without bending them.

No problem getting boots on with liners already on feet after the sensors were in.

The Trackers had to be mounted on the front of the boot or they would occasionally disconnect from the phone.

Had to mark the trackers to know left from right.

Spent a lot more time looking at my phone during the ski day When using CARV

The box the CARV came in was beautifully put together.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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My scores were so low but when I look at my skis, they are pretty much dead parallel. If you remove the sensor from the boot and go to the calibrate motion screen, you can then go through the calibration process. Afterwards, but without leaving that screen, press the area where the cable attaches to the sensor while the sensor is flat and not moving. If the screen shows there's rotation on the sensor, yet it is still, then there is a problem with the sensor. You can file a support request with Carv through your app from the settings page.

Mike
 
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