EV or no EV?

[cantunamunch]

@Rod9301 is kind of right.......kind of hard in the short-run for the EV to gain mass market penetration in the US and EU. If commoditizaton and adaption of the EV depends on masses, the end of cheap money along with rising production and sales costs will present a host of challenges.

The french are on it:

Takeaway: subsidy for ultra cheap city car conversions. 15 kWh capacity for 60 mile range in a Fiat 500 at urban not highway speeds. 7-8K euros before subsidies.

 

[James]

Citroën Ami | Citroën Electric Car | Citroën UK

Discover the smallest Citroën car: Citroën Ami. 100% Electric, designed for urban living. Experience the future of mobility with a compact Citroën electric car.

www.citroen.co.uk

 

[Lorenzzo]

I’ve been driving a Volkswagen Group plug-in hybrid for almost 2 years. What a pleasure so far. It was the best variant of its model in terms of up-front value once the tax credit was added in and was arguably the best in terms of performance too. The risk up-front seemed to be obsolescence and maintenance cost down the road. It’s been described as the most complex model VAG has ever built. It has regenerative technology that is amazing. The battery range is only 27 miles but that’s unregenerated. In the real world I can go about 100 miles to Salt Lake City and back with the vast majority driven all electric. Local trips are all electric.

This thread highlights the uncertainty were facing which makes good decision making in this area not so easy. For someone like me who likes cars but isn’t nearly as informed as most of you, it seems like a reasonable path. But in terms of performance, utility and day-to-day economy it’s been a great two years. If I get dinged from obsolescence or unforeseen maintenance cost, what alternative doesn’t present that kind of risk?At least at this point I feel ahead of the curve.

 

[cantunamunch]

^Not an actual car, uses the quadcycle exemption.

Citroen Ami Review 2023 | Top Gear

Yes, it’s a rubbish ‘car’... because it isn’t one. But it is fun to use and an entirely loveable object

www.topgear.com

 

[cantunamunch]

This thread highlights the uncertainty were facing which makes good decision making in this area not so easy. For someone like me who likes cars but isn’t nearly as informed as most of you, it seems like a reasonable path. But in terms of performance, utility and day-to-day economy it’s been a great two years. If I get dinged from obsolescence or unforeseen maintenance cost, what alternative doesn’t present that kind of risk?At least at this point I feel ahead of the curve.

Since it's VAG, there's some likelihood you'll be able to update your battery packs further down the line.

 

[James]

^Not an actual car, uses the quadcycle exemption.

Citroen Ami Review 2023 | Top Gear

Yes, it’s a rubbish ‘car’... because it isn’t one. But it is fun to use and an entirely loveable object

www.topgear.com

That’s ok. Got to start somewhere. Good for the teenager in the house as it’s limited to 28mph, 43 miles.
The Renault 2CV should’t have been a “car” either.

 

[AlpsSkidad]

That’s ok. Got to start somewhere. Good for the teenager in the house as it’s limited to 28mph, 43 miles.
The Renault 2CV should’t have been a “car” either.

FYI Citroen made the 2cv. Renault equivalent might have been the Renault ‘4’

 

[cantunamunch]

When Covid suspended busing, at least one of the local schools literally ran out of parking space - and even with the rebuild the adjoining street is packed for over a mile.

A lot of parents are beyond the teen-dedicated car thing, and just went whole hog on e-bikes and e-mopeds. MUCH smaller storage space at the school.

 

[Tom K.]

All the objections to EVs remind me of when my grandfather told me Model Ts would never replace horses because all the naphtha it would take to fuel them. Never bet against technology.

Possibly true, unless limited lithium resources become a big thing.

If EVs catch on to the level currently being mandated by many governments, we may see wars (of one type or another) fought over this resource.

Possible savior: Lithium extraction from brine, as being developed at California's Salton Sea:

The Salton Sea could produce the world's greenest lithium, if new extraction technologies work

Amid the shrinking, toxic Salton Sea, there's enough lithium to meet the United States' entire projected demand and fuel the electric-vehicle revolution.

www.cnbc.com

A source other than what I'll call hard rock mining would be interesting, to say the least.

 

[PinnacleJim]

EVs are definitely coming, but I don't see them ready for prime time for people like me that make regular 250+ mile trips to and from ski country. And I wonder how long and how expensive it's going to be to update the electric infrastructure to support millions of people plugging in their EVs each evening. Just this week the Texas grid was maxed out. How is that going to support all this increased demand?

 

[scott43]

Take all the gas tax and transfer it to ev tax...

 

[scott43]

EVs are definitely coming, but I don't see them ready for prime time for people like me that make regular 250+ mile trips to and from ski country. And I wonder how long and how expensive it's going to be to update the electric infrastructure to support millions of people plugging in their EVs each evening. Just this week the Texas grid was maxed out. How is that going to support all this increased demand?

You may not have a choice. It may become your only option.

 

[James]

For those who may not be fully aware of some of the Fukushima, Japan nuclear accident: The plant was designed to never be shut down, so even though there was advanced warning of the tsunami there was nothing that could be done. But not to worry, as the nuclear plant was designed to withstand a tsunami, and it did. Local power outage was anticipated so the plant had a backup diesel powered generator. The only problem was that the building housing the generator was not designed to withstand a tsunami so it flooded, knocking out the diesel generator causing the nuclear meltdown.

You might like this article of the inside of Shoreham in 2014 from a location scout. .

Scouting Long Island’s Decommissioned Nuclear Power Plant – Scouting NY

www.scoutingny.com

 

[PinnacleJim]

You may not have a choice. It may become your only option.

Maybe, but I think that time is some years away. EVs are still well below 10% of new car sales, so still a niche vehicle. Just today I took ownership of a new car (actually a CPO) and it's ICE, not EV or even a hybrid. So I am not likely to go electric for a least 5 more years or so. Maybe by then the infrastruture will be upgraded enough to make EVs an option for other than local use and short trips. Or not.

 

[Lorenzzo]

You might like this article of the inside of Shoreham in 2014 from a location scout. .

View attachment 171456
View attachment 171455
View attachment 171453

Scouting Long Island’s Decommissioned Nuclear Power Plant – Scouting NY

www.scoutingny.com

Based on those photos, particularly the one of the endless control panels, what could possibly have gone wrong? I guess today there'd be more digitization and nothing ever goes wrong with that.

Do we know where the 5 million pounds of nuclear waste went?

 

[James]

Do we know where the 5 million pounds of nuclear waste went?

From 1994-
—————-
Mr. Kessel said removing the radioactive waste that was produced during testing required 353 truck shipments of more than 5 million pounds of waste to burial and reprocessing sites in South Carolina and Tennessee.

The authority also shipped 560 irradiated fuel assemblies by barge from the plant, which is on Long Island Sound about 60 miles east of Manhattan, to the Philadelphia Electric Company's power plant in Limerick, Pa. The last of 33 barge shipments was made in June.

The pool where fuel rods were stored was drained and irradiated surfaces were ground away, officials said. They said no radiation above normal background levels remained inside the reactor building.
———————

Dismantling of the Shoreham Nuclear Plant Is Completed (Published 1994)

www.nytimes.com

 

[sparty]

The risk up-front seemed to be obsolescence and maintenance cost down the road. It’s been described as the most complex model VAG has ever built.

Having owned a couple of VWs and been involved in the local VW club scene years ago (and then by extension the online one), that second sentence would terrify me, especially in conjunction with the first one.

I do expect my next vehicle to be at least a plug in hybrid, if not full electric, but I also expect to keep my current truck for at least another five years, maybe more.

 

[cantunamunch]

OK. We have reached the point of the thread where we need to talk about the elephant in the room.


Driver - monitoring insurance premiums.

Like it or not, Tesla is now a driver-monitoring insurance provider in 8 states, working on more.

Tesla Prepares To Start Selling Auto Insurance In Florida

Tesla, led by high-profile billionaire Elon Musk, not only wants to manufacture your electric vehicle but it also wants to sell you the insurance for it. Austin, Texas-based Tesla is offering auto insurance in Arizona, California, Colorado, Illinois, Maryland, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, Utah an

www.forbes.com

Like it or not, every commercially sold EV is a drive-by-wire and a brake-by-wire and a steering-by-wire that actively monitors driver inputs.

Does that change anyone's thinking in this thread? Are we all going to be financially rewarded for driving like potato? Are there going to be active curbs on reckless EV zoom?

 

[scott43]

OK. We have reached the point of the thread where we need to talk about the elephant in the room.


Driver - monitoring insurance premiums.

Like it or not, Tesla is now a driver-monitoring insurance provider in 8 states, working on more.

Tesla Prepares To Start Selling Auto Insurance In Florida

Tesla, led by high-profile billionaire Elon Musk, not only wants to manufacture your electric vehicle but it also wants to sell you the insurance for it. Austin, Texas-based Tesla is offering auto insurance in Arizona, California, Colorado, Illinois, Maryland, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, Utah an

www.forbes.com

Like it or not, every commercially sold EV is a drive-by-wire and a brake-by-wire and a steering-by-wire that actively monitors driver inputs.

Does that change anyone's thinking in this thread? Are we all going to be financially rewarded for driving like potato? Are there going to be active curbs on reckless EV zoom?

We already have voluntary insurance tracking of car parameters while driving. I don't think many people actually opt into it..for obvious reason.. 10% probably ain't enough to open the window into people's driving habits..who all think they are god's gift to safe driving....

 

[Jwrags]

OK. We have reached the point of the thread where we need to talk about the elephant in the room.


Driver - monitoring insurance premiums.

Like it or not, Tesla is now a driver-monitoring insurance provider in 8 states, working on more.

Tesla Prepares To Start Selling Auto Insurance In Florida

Tesla, led by high-profile billionaire Elon Musk, not only wants to manufacture your electric vehicle but it also wants to sell you the insurance for it. Austin, Texas-based Tesla is offering auto insurance in Arizona, California, Colorado, Illinois, Maryland, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, Utah an

www.forbes.com

Like it or not, every commercially sold EV is a drive-by-wire and a brake-by-wire and a steering-by-wire that actively monitors driver inputs.

Does that change anyone's thinking in this thread? Are we all going to be financially rewarded for driving like potato? Are there going to be active curbs on reckless EV zoom?

It would seem that ICE vehicles have computers that can track the exact same stuff, if desired. It is not unique to an EV.