EV or no EV?

[pete]

Did I mention that it drives great in the snow The only downside is that the car is so new they do not have a lot of available accessories or aftermarket parts available. The stock Mopar side boards are of poor quality and the Mopar Cross Bars add 5 inches to your clearance height, which means with even a low profile ski box you are over 7 feet. On the plus side the car auto detects the temperature when you get in and will automatically turn on the seat warmers and heated steering wheel along with the heater to warm up the car.

Pure gas MPG is 24 but you have to force the car into that mode and quite frankly that makes no sense as you lose the power of your electric motor. In Hybrid mode it will mostly deplete the battery and on pure EV mode it only use the battery for about 26 real world miles. All in all this car is sipping gas at a much slower rate than our Rav4 hybrid which gets 41MPG.

If you do get one see if you can find a model with the Tech package, we didn't and that is our one regret.

very cool.

I took a look and was a bit surprised it's a 2L engine. I guess after thinking it's not surprising but my mind was more thinking of a Prius type electric generator.

I may have to get out and physically look at the hybrid verses standard to see the differences. Its intriguing. I'd reserved myself to no EV but maybe a Hybrid type simple due to lack of charging in my midwest area and the long miles I put on for fairly regular trips.

 

[dovski]

very cool.

I took a look and was a bit surprised it's a 2L engine. I guess after thinking it's not surprising but my mind was more thinking of a Prius type electric generator.

I may have to get out and physically look at the hybrid verses standard to see the differences. Its intriguing. I'd reserved myself to no EV but maybe a Hybrid type simple due to lack of charging in my midwest area and the long miles I put on for fairly regular trips.

You have to remember that attached to the 2L engine is a pancake electric engine and they work together. As a result the Jeep plug in hybrid has more horse power, torque and faster acceleration than the V8 version of the Jeep. There is also third engine that will generate electricity for the electric engine when your battery is depleted. This third engine can also charge the battery while you drive. So even when you battery is depleted you still get the benefits of the electric motor.

 

[kayco53]

View attachment 171407

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Thanks but I think I like my 1988 Suzuki Samurai better.

 

[neonorchid]

 

[DanoT]

It is not really surprising that Toyota figured it out 20+ years ago with hybrid technology as the future, not BEVs.

 

[neonorchid]

It is not really surprising that Toyota figured it out 20+ years ago with hybrid technology as the future, not BEVs.

Stopped in Yoda Stealship last week for oil change. Spoke with sales person, currently a 7 to 9 month wait, also '23 Prius and all Toyota Hybirds will cost $3000 over sticker $$$

Asked about the GR Corolla. They have one base model on order ETA around May and all GR's will be sold at $10,000 over sticker $$$! Salesperson said once word gets out they are getting one in somebody will snap it up and it will be gone from the lot the day it arrives.

 

[Tom K.]

Thanks but I think I like my 1988 Suzuki Samurai better.

Interesting! I once went snowcat skiing, and two brothers showed up in a Samurai that, if memory serves, had a transplanted Nissan V6 with a stick shift trans. Seemed super cool.

 

[neonorchid]

I was told no more gov rebates tax credits on Toyota Hybirds, I like that new '23 Prius, shame about that and also that they won't be offering '23 Plug-In Prius with AWD option

 

[Dave Marshak]

J

It is not really surprising that Toyota figured it out 20+ years ago with hybrid technology as the future, not BEVs.

Nope. Hybrids are the worst combination of fossil pollution and electric complication, from both the vehicle and the infrastructure to support it.
Environmental groups now have concluded that that as much fossil fuel use as possible needs to be eliminated. That requires a huge electric system build out and electric vehicles are an essential part of that. Hybrids just get in the way. If hybrids are common, the gasoline infrastucture will remain and ICE will continue to dominate, and the EV charging system will never be created because range anxiety will not be an issue.
That's why government policy favors battery EVs over hybrids.

dm

 

[DanoT]

Environmental groups now have concluded that that as much fossil fuel use as possible needs to be eliminated. That requires a huge electric system build out and electric vehicles are an essential part of that.

Enviro groups have also rejected Nuclear power and thus they do not have an answer to the question of how to power the huge electric system build out (that build out is currently not happening). We do have a solution in B.C.; it involves building huge hydro electric dams, but the Greens are against that as well. Other areas are not physically able to build dams, so the most populated areas, like China who are big on BEVs, are increasing coal fired electrical generation.

Thinking that BEVs wills save the planet, is delusional.

 

[PinnacleJim]

Finding the zero/low carbon electric energy production is easy and developed technologies - solar, wind and nuclear. The tough part is the grid and charging infrastructure. Will take decades and cost trillions. With the current grid issues and limitations, can you imagine if the majority of cars today were electric and everyone was plugging in each night? And I will say this again - the current battery technology including availability of the materials and environmental damage to mine for them is not going to get us there. We need a battery technology breakthrough for this all to work.

 

[dovski]

Finding the zero/low carbon electric energy production is easy and developed technologies - solar, wind and nuclear. The tough part is the grid and charging infrastructure. Will take decades and cost trillions. With the current grid issues and limitations, can you imagine if the majority of cars today were electric and everyone was plugging in each night? And I will say this again - the current battery technology including availability of the materials and environmental damage to mine for them is not going to get us there. We need a battery technology breakthrough for this all to work.

So completely agree on the need to upgrade/replace our power grid. Crazy tha t much of it has been around since the 1950s. Horribly inefficient and unreliable. EV infrastructure also needs to be built out to make EVs viable at scale, but speaking from personal experience, what is in place today is exponentially more than just a few years back and more than enough to support the current EVs on the road.

Now with regard to battery technology, yes improvements are needed and will come over time, but as someone who has owned 2 EVs, multiple hybrids and one PHEV, I can tell you firsthand that the current technology is viable, though not for every use case.

Urban driving is no problem especially considering that the average person drives less than 50 miles a day. Long haul trips along populated routes or electrified routes are also easy (just drove Seattle to Whistler and only needed a 10 min stop in Squamish to super charge, which gave me more than enough juice to get there and destination charge). Winter trips into less populated regions can be a bit iffy, but that will change over time.

Lot’s of talk about environmentalists and fossil fuel, but what folks are missing out on as the real driving factors for EVs are performance and cost savings. Everyone likes cars that are fun to drive, most EVs check that box in a big way. But let’s talk about the savings, these cars rarely if ever need servicing (no oil to change) and cost very little to operate. Our round trip drive to Whistler is going to require around $30 of super charging vs easily $200+ for gas. While there may be a larger upfront cost, these are coming down.

so while traditional auto execs and gas station owners may not like it EVs are here to stay. Anyone saying the technology isn’t ready is welcome to stick with their ICE vehicle until they stop making them altogether on a couple years

 

[PinnacleJim]

I see you are an EV convert dovski. I agree that the current technology works, but it's the expansion from here to a majority of cars being EVs that I have doubts about. The environmental damage from mining for the minerals to make the current batteries is a mess. And battery prices are rising for the first time in many years because of material shortages. Hence my statement about the need for a battery breakthrough.

 

[Philpug]

We just saw some sort of a 3 wheel, single seat at a charger today. I am not sure what it was and I cannot find a picture but it was damn sharp.

 

[Andy Mink]

We just saw some sort of a 3 wheel, single seat at a charger today. I am not sure what it was and I cannot find a picture but it was damn sharp.

I think I saw that driving down the road the other day. Was it open sides but with a roof?

 

[Philpug]

I think I saw that driving down the road the other day. Was it open sides but with a roof?

Nope, this was more sportscar like up front.

 

[dovski]

I see you are an EV convert dovski. I agree that the current technology works, but it's the expansion from here to a majority of cars being EVs that I have doubts about. The environmental damage from mining for the minerals to make the current batteries is a mess. And battery prices are rising for the first time in many years because of material shortages. Hence my statement about the need for a battery breakthrough.

To be clear I am an ev convert for some things, like local commuting. EVs are economically out of reach for many people, though prices are starting to come down. And to your earlier point we need to make significant investments in charging infrastructure to support mass adoption.

On the environmental side I think we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t as everything seems to be bad for you or damage the environment these days. So yes mining has its environmental downfalls but so do fossil fuels, but EV technology has the potential to alleviate both as it improves over time.

The reality is we do have to improve EV technology, lower prices and build out a better power grid with charging infrastructure before we will see mass adoption of EVs, but that day is likely sooner than we realize.

 

[David Chaus]

I'm intrigued by the Ultium battery system GM has developed. I think this goes a long way towards both the longevity of EV battery systems and the recyclability of the batteries.

 

[Tom K.]

Nope. Hybrids are the worst combination of fossil pollution and electric complication, from both the vehicle and the infrastructure to support it.

I would argue that if everybody was driving hybrids, there would be no need to go the next hugely difficult step of EVs.

Finding the zero/low carbon electric energy production is easy and developed technologies - solar, wind and nuclear.

But solar and wind are fickle to say the least, and nuclear has been deemed unacceptable.

Sometimes I think because it could work so well with current technology.

Bummer.

...but speaking from personal experience, what is in place today is exponentially more than just a few years back and more than enough to support the current EVs on the road.

And what tiny percentage is that? Well, it's less than 1%. Imagine if we went to even 5%.

Now with regard to battery technology, yes improvements are needed and will come over time,

A couple of the smartest guys at MIT have been working on this for nearly two decades. One of them wonders if they are chasing a unicorn, and already banging up against the laws of physics with current battery tech.

Of course, he'll be wrong, but he might be alive to see the change. And the change we need is a 10-fold improvment.

Winter trips into less populated regions can be a bit iffy, but that will change over time.

They are not "iffy". They are currently untenable.

Everyone likes cars that are fun to drive, most EVs check that box in a big way.

I haven't driven them all, but I've driven a few, and once you get past the immediate torque from a standstill -- yawn, for me anyway.

I see you are an EV convert dovski. I agree that the current technology works, but it's the expansion from here to a majority of cars being EVs that I have doubts about. The environmental damage from mining for the minerals to make the current batteries is a mess. And battery prices are rising for the first time in many years because of material shortages. Hence my statement about the need for a battery breakthrough.

Spot on, especially when you consider the current EV challenges with less than 1% of today's traffic being comprised of EVs.

 

[Shawn]

So yes mining has its environmental downfalls but so do fossil fuels, but EV technology has the potential to alleviate both as it improves over time.

Exactly. The environmental impact of mining for metals in EV batteries could of course be improved. But it's hardly a compelling reason not to adopt EV batteries when the main alternative is drilling, transporting, refining, and burning fossil fuels— a chain of destruction exponentially worse. Something like 10,000-20,000 people die each year in the United States from pollution emitted from fossil fuel engines in vehicles. While I respect PinnacleJim and note the nuance his comments give to the discussion, they must be appropriately contextualized.