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EV or no EV?

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cantunamunch

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Ok, so this is cute ugly?

View attachment 205264

Hyundai Lavita by Pinninfarina

If 'cheeky' was in the design brief, I'd honestly say they nailed it. That could so easily have been a Fiat Multipla. Or a 90s Honda Civic Wagon.

Talk about threading their way between Scylla and Charybdis:

1686247073501.png

1686247186995.png
 

pete

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This is probably why they just, quite unexpectedly, delayed building the huge plant to produce them here.(or was it the batteries maybe both?)
Dynamics or systems 101 would seemed to solve the basic math for dampening ... but I know I sucked at linear systems using matrices .. :(
 

dovski

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Looks like Tesla's investment in its supercharging network is paying off and will likely become the North America standard. Both Ford and GM have announced they are adopting it. So while CCS is not going away, it is going to have a very difficult time catching up with the Tesla North American Charging Standard (NACS) which is currently the most expansive and reliable fast charging network. This also puts a lot of pressure on all other manufacturers to adopt the Tesla standard, as it provides a key differentiator for EVs that use it and is apparently more efficient than CCS. This is a big win for Tesla and will only fuel the growth of their charging network. It will now be interesting to see if other charging networks start to adopt and deploy the Tesla standard.

 

dovski

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Another key differntiator for Tesla is the buying experience. Their direct to consumer approach not only disrupts the dealership model, but eliminates layers of margin and unpleasant haggling that many have come loath when buying a car. Whether you like EVs or not you have to respect this new approach to selling cars which is much easier and way more customer friendly. Thought this article was an interesting read as it really highlights this.

 

Seldomski

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This is a big win for Tesla
Debatable. The consumer wins. The network was a huge selling point for their cars. When you bought a Tesla you also were buying a 'premium charger experience.'

As someone who does not own a Tesla and will probably get a BEV in next ~5 years, I am a fan of this change.
 

pete

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There's solutions... there's buildable solutions... there's buildable solutions within budget ... there's buildable solutions within budget your customers like ;)
very true, capitalism rules.

on similar note is different markets are driven (eh eh eh ) by different likes. I recall long ago that the underdamped ride of many US highway cruiser cars. Body styles already noted previously .. so true.
 

dovski

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Debatable. The consumer wins. The network was a huge selling point for their cars. When you bought a Tesla you also were buying a 'premium charger experience.'

As someone who does not own a Tesla and will probably get a BEV in next ~5 years, I am a fan of this change.
It is a win win situation. There was a lot of pressure on Tesla to adopt the CCS standard, but little to no upside. With the broader adoption of their NACS standard, that pressure is removed. They also have a 10% margin on charging, so broad-scale adoption and expansion of their charging network is good for business. To your point this is also a huge win for non-Tesla EV drivers, as they will now have access to what is arguably the most pervasive and advanced fast charging network. It is also a win for Ford and GM, plus any other manufacturers who want to immediately benefit from the Tesla charging network without making the same upfront investments that Tesla has been making for the last 10+ years. The loser here is the CCS standard which now becomes much less relevant and the charging networks that were betting big on it. My guess is that if you have continued momentum towards NACS, CCS will start to sunset just like Chademo and the other charging networks will have to upgrade/modify their chargers for NACS.
 

pete

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It is a win win situation. There was a lot of pressure on Tesla to adopt the CCS standard, but little to no upside. With the broader adoption of their NACS standard, that pressure is removed. They also have a 10% margin on charging, so broad-scale adoption and expansion of their charging network is good for business. To your point this is also a huge win for non-Tesla EV drivers, as they will now have access to what is arguably the most pervasive and advanced fast charging network. It is also a win for Ford and GM, plus any other manufacturers who want to immediately benefit from the Tesla charging network without making the same upfront investments that Tesla has been making for the last 10+ years. The loser here is the CCS standard which now becomes much less relevant and the charging networks that were betting big on it. My guess is that if you have continued momentum towards NACS, CCS will start to sunset just like Chademo and the other charging networks will have to upgrade/modify their chargers for NACS.
so you're calling one the VHS and the other may be the Beta of charging ogsmile .. at least in the US?
 

Wilhelmson

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Can we just give apple and Samsung a subsidy to fix their chargers too? That would be a cool little feature on these charging things- fully charge your phone while doing the car. For an extra buck or two throw in an iv with caffeine and some Gatorade and cod liver oil.
 

James

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IMG_1033.jpeg

Hummer EV at Loudon Racetrack, NH. Got a ride in it. The acceleration is nuts in a nearly 9,500 pound vehicle. It’s also got California mode of sorts. The roof panels come out and the back window opens too. It also has a crabbing feature, where it can go with wheels probably 40 degrees off axis. Truly bizarre. Not sure the use, but rear wheel steering is very useful for turning radius. I think it could U turn in a two lane rural road.

I would say it’s more a show piece and an advertisement. The battery is 200kWh. That’s 5 Nissan Leafs, and 8 of the older Leafs.

IMG_1036.jpeg

BYD electric bus, 35foot. Little Cottonwood Canyon??
 

dovski

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so you're calling one the VHS and the other may be the Beta of charging ogsmile .. at least in the US?
Or the other way to think about it is like this what if Tesla is Beta (the better technology) and Tesla re-writes history and takes out VHS lol

Joking aside Tesla's vertical integration of all things charging into their vehicles and vehicle systems is a real game changer. Combine that with the standardization, location, maintenance, reliability and sheer numbers of their Super Chargers and CCS really does not come close to comparing. Tesla also claims their chargers are more efficient than CCS chargers, but I really wouldn't know. All I can say is the Tesla Superchargers have yet to let me down, and they are constantly increasing their power, believe the current generation is 350KW. Used a 250KW charger in Vancouver last month and basically charged me from 20% to 80% in under 15 minutes ... we barely had time to order our food before I had to move the car. Just saying a fast reliable network like that is what EVs need.
 

David Chaus

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I don't know about a game changer, unless all other manufactures start doing the same type of vertical integration. And since Tesla has already built the charging infrastructure, it's going to be more about sourcing and securing their own battery materials, some of which is already shaping up. And regardless of whether they're developing their own brand new systems or buy off-the shelf components, some of these vehicles are really nice to drive.

The main takeaway I got is that as other manufacturers ramp up their EV models and increase their market share of EV sales, Tesla may make more of their revenue from EV charging than from EV sales. It may take Japanese automakers a while to give up CHAdeMO, given they developed the standard. OTOH Kia/Hyundai may be quicker to switch from CCS and adopt NACS.

The driving experience (handling, ride comfort and other factors that are important to the wider consumer market and not just the early adopters) is at least as good and often better in almost every other EV made by mainstream auto builders. As far as the process of ordering your vehicle online and avoiding the haggling experience at dealerships, it's actually available with other brands as well, including delivery to your residence. They don't always promote this.

I did talk to one dealer who feels most Americans won't adopt the small-footprint showroom and order your vehicle with a later delivery date. Maybe he's right, or maybe he can't yet accept that someone has moved his cheese. We'll see, but I'm still seeing a lot of empty asphalt at most dealerships these days.
 

James

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Their direct to consumer approach not only disrupts the dealership model, but eliminates layers of margin and unpleasant haggling that many have come loath when buying a car. Whether you like EVs or not you have to respect this new approach to selling cars which is much easier and way more customer friendly. Thought this article was an interesting read as it really highlights this.
Well the Oem’s are in a very tough spot. Most, all?, states mandate selling through dealers. The pandemic and chip shortage saw dealer markups into the truly obscene category. Oems’s get none of that profit.

Ford is trying to sell direct and has like a dozen lawsuits against it.


I did talk to one dealer who feels most Americans won't adopt the small-footprint showroom and order your vehicle with a later delivery date. Maybe he's right, or maybe he can't yet accept that someone has moved his cheese. We'll see, but I'm still seeing a lot of empty asphalt at most dealerships these days.
I mean that’s a dealer. Remember Saturn? That was supposed to get rid of the sleaziness of the dealership. Hard to put it any other way. They’ve done themselves no favors over the years.

But that Truecoat see…

 

dovski

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I don't know about a game changer, unless all other manufactures start doing the same type of vertical integration. And since Tesla has already built the charging infrastructure, it's going to be more about sourcing and securing their own battery materials, some of which is already shaping up. And regardless of whether they're developing their own brand new systems or buy off-the shelf components, some of these vehicles are really nice to drive.

The main takeaway I got is that as other manufacturers ramp up their EV models and increase their market share of EV sales, Tesla may make more of their revenue from EV charging than from EV sales. It may take Japanese automakers a while to give up CHAdeMO, given they developed the standard. OTOH Kia/Hyundai may be quicker to switch from CCS and adopt NACS.

The driving experience (handling, ride comfort and other factors that are important to the wider consumer market and not just the early adopters) is at least as good and often better in almost every other EV made by mainstream auto builders. As far as the process of ordering your vehicle online and avoiding the haggling experience at dealerships, it's actually available with other brands as well, including delivery to your residence. They don't always promote this.

I did talk to one dealer who feels most Americans won't adopt the small-footprint showroom and order your vehicle with a later delivery date. Maybe he's right, or maybe he can't yet accept that someone has moved his cheese. We'll see, but I'm still seeing a lot of empty asphalt at most dealerships these days.
So what is interesting about the Ford and GM announcements is that they will be integrating the Tesla charging networks into their cars ... so the same integration Tesla has, heck they are probably licensing the a bunch of software and connectivity from Tesla as part of the deal.

As for the traditional dealership model, it is currently protected in some states by laws that are almost a hundred years old. Unfortunately it is passed it's prime and dying a slow death. Sure their are lawsuits and legislation that will slow this process, but the end is inevitable. Simply put buying from a dealership has become a painful process of haggling for cars that have not even been built yet. Tons of price inequity and high pressure up sells, I mean do you really need that $2k undercoating. Plus who wants to spend hours at the dealership every time they want to buy a car. Even once we agreed to buy our last car and agreed on the price, they kept there for another hour so I could see the finance manager and spend an hour with her and after all that we waited two months for the car to come in .... and then had to go to the dealership to pick it up and spend a couple hours there all over again. With Tesla the online purchase took a couple minutes, all the documents were esigned. The next day the dropped the car off in my driveway, I did an inspection, accepted it, they drove off in my trade in and we were done. With our first Tesla we did go to the show room to drop off our trade in and pick up our car. We would have been there for a total of 10 minutes but my wife wanted to grab some Tesla tchotchkes and it took her about 10 min to pick out the ones she wanted (Umbrella, Key chain, travel mug ... etc.). Bottom line both times we knew what we were buying and the price, no one pressured us to pay market adjustments, add on any packages or anything. All the contracts and financing was e-signed on our home computer. The entire process took minutes vs hours ... and they came to us vs us going to them. Cannot argue with a process like that.
 

James

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Sure their are lawsuits and legislation that will slow this process, but the end is inevitable. Simply put buying from a dealership has become a painful process of haggling for cars that have not even been built yet.
Well only if laws are changed in 50 States. It’s not driven by the market.
 

dovski

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Well only if laws are changed in 50 States. It’s not driven by the market.
Slowly but surely change will come, it has already reached most states, with a just a few holdouts left. The really challenge is all the dealership agreements that the legacy auto companies have and lack of infrastructure/network to replace them. Think about it, Ford makes money when they sell a car or parts to a dealership, and maybe a little on financing. Tesla on the other hand, sells the car, sells the service, sells the financing, sells the charging and now sells insurance ... plus since they are manufacturer direct they also eliminate a layer of margin and have a much more efficient customer friendly sales process that turns their inventory exponentially faster. Compare the two business models and tell me which one wins in the long run.
 

pete

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Well the Oem’s are in a very tough spot. Most, all?, states mandate selling through dealers. The pandemic and chip shortage saw dealer markups into the truly obscene category. Oems’s get none of that profit.

Ford is trying to sell direct and has like a dozen lawsuits against it.



I mean that’s a dealer. Remember Saturn? That was supposed to get rid of the sleaziness of the dealership. Hard to put it any other way. They’ve done themselves no favors over the years.

But that Truecoat see…

Ford noted a while back about splitting their business into ICE and EV ... suspect this may be one reason, and maybe why they're being sued?
 
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