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Expert vs. Beginner skis

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Kind of want to add a qualifier on the word “forgiving” here. Often we gear nerds use it to mean “bendier” and less immediately reactive. Won’t spank you if you get back. HOWEVER I feel like there are a lot of beginner/lower intermediate skiers out there who would use “forgiving” to describe some serious business stiff skis. For the express reason that they don’t bend so they psychologically feel like a more stable less scary platform and the tails will support you if you sit on them.

That WILL hold back someone’s development though. Good to know who’s speaking when they describe their subjective experience.
Yeah I'm getting that feeling, that forgiving and "bendier" or are a little synonymous in this context, based on blogs, reviews, this forum, etc.

With that said, being a 'bendy' ski and a not 'bendy' ski, how do you feel it attenuates progression? Is it because the new person ends up falsely relying on the stability, rather than being forced to contend with a flexible ski? If so, isn't that counter to forgiveness of the ski?
 

zircon

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Yeah I'm getting that feeling, that forgiving and "bendier" or are a little synonymous in this context, based on blogs, reviews, this forum, etc.

With that said, being a 'bendy' ski and a not 'bendy' ski, how do you feel it attenuates progression? Is it because the new person ends up falsely relying on the stability, rather than being forced to contend with a flexible ski? If so, isn't that counter to forgiveness of the ski?
Keeping in mind that I am nowhere near an expert skier… You’re on the right track.

Have you ever looked down off the lift and spent some time sorting the people you see into the categories of “good skier” and “just confident”? You’ll find that the “just confident crowd” shares traits of sitting back on the tails of super stiff skis and rocketing down the mountain. They aren’t actually getting any of the performance the ski was designed for except momentarily by accident, but they are getting a very stable platform that makes speed feel safer than skiing in control. Just don’t ask them to make an unplanned because the tail is going to be locked in and unreleasable from that position (“you’re in my line, bro!”)

When we say “forgiving” for a bendy ski, it’s that you have to be able to feel the ski bend to learn how to bend a ski. The intended performance is accessible at the speeds and within the skill set of an intermediate skier but it also won’t launch you into orbit if you screw up. The forgiveness comes from there being a large range of inputs that produce the “right” result without demanding perfection every time, and making it possible to feel what you did to make that happen.

Sorry that may be a bit circular in reasoning there. I can’t think when typing on my phone.
 

dbostedo

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Yikes, how does this happen exactly?
It takes 2 things:

1) bend stiff cambered skis a lot, like in a medium to high speed carve
2) release them to make the next turn, with your weight out of position for them to push you into the next turn (like back on the tails)

In a case like that, they can "launch" you across the hill... it can be disconcerting, and for me it reminds me to not get lazy.
 
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It takes 2 things:

1) bend stiff cambered skis a lot, like in a medium to high speed carve
2) release them to make the next turn, with your weight out of position for them to push you into the next turn (like back on the tails)

In a case like that, they can "launch" you across the hill... it can be disconcerting, and for me it reminds me to not get lazy.
Yeah I've had that happen to me on other skis also (not just Divus). Maybe its just worse with metal banded skis? Personally this happens when I try to drive in a good carve. If I'm skid turning not so much.

Probably a larger concern is, are there other instances where this added restoring force can throw you out of your game? Maybe coming off a bump? I'm kind of getting psyched out of using my Divus for awhile and staying on my Camox (although that added 10cm of underfoot makes it harder to get on edge or that could just be mental)

Thoughts?

BTW - I would be remissed if I didn't say how helpful you all have been as I ask 4 thousand questions on skiing. I listen to all replies and your responses resonate with me and I put them inside my giant head when I get on the slopes. :golfclap:
 

tromano

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Alot of narrow wide skis get labeled as intermediate because a versatile softsnow oriented ski, if you shrink it, can be well suited to intermediates skidding around on a groomer. But it's not like the skis cant rip with the right pilot.
 

Tytlynz64

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OK, I can get on board with that idea. The turn lock, I feel like can always be overcome by just forcing the opposite direction...maybe that's not the best way, or most elegant, but get's you out of a bind I guess? Does that sound right?

Between the Divus and The Declivity 82s I had, I do feel like the Divus are more stable at speed (not much speed, 25-30MPH) then the Declivity 82s felt to me. Also I don't feel as out of control on the Diamonds which maybe is a reflection of getting a little better. Overall stable is a good quantifier.

The flex (or lack of it), I guess at my size and weight don't mess me up as much or I am too new to be able to discern it.
I think you are on the right track. What you refer to as forcing in the opposite direction is the crux. To go in the opposite direction you must first stop going in the current direction. The amount of effort needed to accomplish that can be loosely considered as a forgiveness factor. Lots of effort= less forgiving.
 
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Alot of narrow wide skis get labeled as intermediate because a versatile softsnow oriented ski, if you shrink it, can be well suited to intermediates skidding around on a groomer. But it's not like the skis cant rip with the right pilot.
Thanks for the info... I'm not sure I follow though, which skis are you talking about and what do you mean by shrink it/them.?
 
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I think you are on the right track. What you refer to as forcing in the opposite direction is the crux. To go in the opposite direction you must first stop going in the current direction. The amount of effort needed to accomplish that can be loosely considered as a forgiveness factor. Lots of effort= less forgiving.
So stacking up the Divus vs. Camox, even though the Divus are 82 underfoot which makes getting on edge easier (for me anyway), which of those do you think would be better suited for intermediate practicing?
 

tromano

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Thanks for the info... I'm not sure I follow though, which skis are you talking about and what do you mean by shrink it/them.?
Narrow wide skis - Solly Stance 84, QST 92, Dynastar Mpro 85, Volkl Kanjo. These are shrunk down versions of wider skis. That are marketed as more intermediate/advanced skis, while the wider versions are "expert" skis. But the narrower ones are just as good for a lot of things and can turn pretty well. Certainly they are suitable for expert skiing. Actually I don't think the narrower skis are any more or less forgiving than the wider versions.

Being forgiving doesn't really limit a ski that much. Forgiveness is just describing a ski that is it easier to use, like if you are off balance or make a mistake here and there, it will react better. It also makes them easier to use in challenging snow conditions. Sometimes experts like to ski challenging snow conditions. Sometimes experts want to ski something steep and bumpy "no fall" terrain. You don't want an unforving "expert" ski for that. You want something "forgiving". Actually many wider "expert" skis are in fact very forgiving to ski. The whole idea of fat skis, and later rockered skis is that they are more forgiving.

I am not familiar with the declivity 82, but tis probably a similar story.
 
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tromano

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So stacking up the Divus vs. Camox, even though the Divus are 82 underfoot which makes getting on edge easier (for me anyway), which of those do you think would be better suited for intermediate practicing?
The narrower ones.
 

tromano

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Even though they have the dual meta bands for stifness?
These are your skis so I assume they fit you are are not either way too stiff or long, etc...right?
And you are talking about just doing drills on terrain that is easy for you like greens or easy blues, right?

If that all checks out then I would say focusing on building fundamental technique and practicing that, narrower would be the way to go. For the stiffer skis, with metal, that's probably better than one with out, all things being equal. You want something that will respond when you do the correct movements.
 

Tytlynz64

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So stacking up the Divus vs. Camox, even though the Divus are 82 underfoot which makes getting on edge easier (for me anyway), which of those do you think would be better suited for intermediate practicing?
As @tromano said narrower skis are easier in general to put on edge. So if you are practicing skills related to that I would tend to go narrower. If you are practicing stomping cliff jumps, the wider one would be my choice. All things relative.
 

François Pugh

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I hear that term a lot, 'forgiving', and I'm sure it has a concrete meaning since it's used so much. Can someone point out a few concrete exams of this? I'm not trying to be dense about it, but I want to, understand it fully.
Say you are skiing and lose your balance, accidentally shifting your weight far forward. Say also that you are beginning to fall to the left. You body's geometry and your motion causes your skis to tip to the left. On an expert ski that is stiff in longitudinal flex a goodly amount of your weight will get transferred to the very front of the ski, and due to the shape of the ski the ski's edge (or the entire tip if you are in soft snow) will dial up a hard left turn. Your skis will turn left faster than you are turning left. You will trip over your skis.

Now say your skis have very little torsional rigidity and you are on a groomer or hard snow. Your edge will try to make you turn hard left, but because it has very little torsional rigidity, instead of digging and and turning hard, it will give a bit, such that the tip is not as tipped as the under-boot section. The edge won't grab as hard, and you will turn less. You will turn less whether you are locked in or not.

The ski is trying to turn you where you don't want to go, and you haven't the skill to make the ski try to do something else. If it is a beginner ski you can just force it to move where you want it to, and rather than hold the dialed up line, you can push it around. If it's an expert ski, that is a lot harder.

A ski that is too stiff in will not bend easily. Tipping and bending skis is how you turn. If it's hard to bend the ski, that could set back your learning process. If it's hard to tip the ski, that could also set back your learning process. On the other hand, if the ski has no rigidity, you won't be able to make as tight a turn at any given speed, and the ski will be unstable at high speeds.

You may say that you will put up with the lack of forgiveness because you are committed to getting better. However with the expert, hard to bend ski, you need to be going fast to make it bend a lot (remember you have to bend the skis to turn), more bending equals more turning, and the less you weigh, the faster you need to go to bend the ski. It's harder to learn when things happen quickly.

Balance between torsion and longitudinal flex is also important, but that's enough for now.
 
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Say you are skiing and lose your balance, accidentally shifting your weight far forward. Say also that you are beginning to fall to the left. You body's geometry and your motion causes your skis to tip to the left. On an expert ski that is stiff in longitudinal flex a goodly amount of your weight will get transferred to the very front of the ski, and due to the shape of the ski the ski's edge (or the entire tip if you are in soft snow) will dial up a hard left turn. Your skis will turn left faster than you are turning left. You will trip over your skis.

Now say your skis have very little torsional rigidity and you are on a groomer or hard snow. Your edge will try to make you turn hard left, but because it has very little torsional rigidity, instead of digging and and turning hard, it will give a bit, such that the tip is not as tipped as the under-boot section. The edge won't grab as hard, and you will turn less. You will turn less whether you are locked in or not.

The ski is trying to turn you where you don't want to go, and you haven't the skill to make the ski try to do something else. If it is a beginner ski you can just force it to move where you want it to, and rather than hold the dialed up line, you can push it around. If it's an expert ski, that is a lot harder.

A ski that is too stiff in will not bend easily. Tipping and bending skis is how you turn. If it's hard to bend the ski, that could set back your learning process. If it's hard to tip the ski, that could also set back your learning process. On the other hand, if the ski has no rigidity, you won't be able to make as tight a turn at any given speed, and the ski will be unstable at high speeds.

You may say that you will put up with the lack of forgiveness because you are committed to getting better. However with the expert, hard to bend ski, you need to be going fast to make it bend a lot (remember you have to bend the skis to turn), more bending equals more turning, and the less you weigh, the faster you need to go to bend the ski. It's harder to learn when things happen quickly.

Balance between torsion and longitudinal flex is also important, but that's enough for now.
So is there a parameter for this that ski. Vendors advertise? Also in your opinion, what would be some good skis for this purpose. I'm squarely intermediate IMO, with some habits I'm trying to unlearn. The Divus have been OK and I enjoy them, but with all the feedback, and reflecting on using them, I probably could use some more flex in my ski, but. I'd like to keep underfoot around 82. Or if there is no parameter what level ski would someone in this situation look for: beginner-intermediate, or intermediate-advanced?

Thanks for all the help.
 

Tytlynz64

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Maybe try the Ski Selector at the top of the page. Enter Intermediate and between 75 and 85 mm waist. You will get a good list and great insights.
 

zircon

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Yeah I've had that happen to me on other skis also (not just Divus). Maybe its just worse with metal banded skis? Personally this happens when I try to drive in a good carve. If I'm skid turning not so much.

Probably a larger concern is, are there other instances where this added restoring force can throw you out of your game? Maybe coming off a bump? I'm kind of getting psyched out of using my Divus for awhile and staying on my Camox (although that added 10cm of underfoot makes it harder to get on edge or that could just be mental)

Thoughts?

BTW - I would be remissed if I didn't say how helpful you all have been as I ask 4 thousand questions on skiing. I listen to all replies and your responses resonate with me and I put them inside my giant head when I get on the slopes. :golfclap:
Going into a bump, mostly, in my experience. The longitudinally bendier, the easier it is to make it come alive at low speeds and also the easier to take the line you want, not the line you have to in the bumps.

Anyway, my real advice (and this is hilarious coming from me): You're overthinking it. From all your posts on this forum, you're looking at gear to solve a problem that may or may not exist and may or may not have the root cause you think it does.

There isn't really a standardized published parameter here that will tell you what you want to hear, but "intermediate-advanced" is about right. Pick a ski. Any ski will do. Your profile says Vermont, so I'd pick the Divus and based on the SkiEssentials review it looks like it's a "narrow wide ski" with some decent tip rise. Ski it all season in every condition. Hop in on some lessons with it. I've been known to insert myself into "intermediate" (read: 5th day beginner) group lessons just for the lulz. Take whatever feedback you can get. Near the end of the season, do a bunch of demoing and ski a bunch of different skis. Compare notes. Was that one easier or harder to turn than the ones you've had all season? Why?
 

François Pugh

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If money were no object and you wanted a good learning ski, I would say a Head Original Supershape or Stockli SC, but I admit I am biased towards the advanced-expert skis; in my defense, these expert skis have a broad range of user and will work at slow speeds. Most people here would recommend a lower level ski than these two.

If money IS an object, you could find some left over skis in the intermediate-advanced or advanced - expert skis category. My son, who is an intermediate skier, opined that the skiswap pair of Deacon Lowrider 80 I got him were easier to ski, but more work than the skiswap speedzone 12 Tis (I got him two pairs so he could lone me one to ski on-piste with him). He did find the speedzone 12s a little scary when he got going faster on a more difficult green run, due to being forced more direcltly down the fall line by the crowd of skiers he was trying to avoid (not all that fast really), but found the Deacon 80 fine in the same situation on an easy blue.
 
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Going into a bump, mostly, in my experience. The longitudinally bendier, the easier it is to make it come alive at low speeds and also the easier to take the line you want, not the line you have to in the bumps.

Anyway, my real advice (and this is hilarious coming from me): You're overthinking it. From all your posts on this forum, you're looking at gear to solve a problem that may or may not exist and may or may not have the root cause you think it does.

There isn't really a standardized published parameter here that will tell you what you want to hear, but "intermediate-advanced" is about right. Pick a ski. Any ski will do. Your profile says Vermont, so I'd pick the Divus and based on the SkiEssentials review it looks like it's a "narrow wide ski" with some decent tip rise. Ski it all season in every condition. Hop in on some lessons with it. I've been known to insert myself into "intermediate" (read: 5th day beginner) group lessons just for the lulz. Take whatever feedback you can get. Near the end of the season, do a bunch of demoing and ski a bunch of different skis. Compare notes. Was that one easier or harder to turn than the ones you've had all season? Why?
I'm thinking it might be a good idea to get a similar width and length (demo) that has much more flex than the Divus (which seems to be classified as advanced-expert on the 2022 model) and ski the Divus one day and the 'bendier' ski the next and go back and forth. Might be a good way to get a binary feel for what to expect.
 

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