Extend vs Flex (taken from video thread)

[Jamt]

As per the turns at the cued point in the "Skiing TwoandTwo" vid above. Also called avalement turns. Retract into transition and then extend laterally into the apex of the new turn.

maybe it is a minute difference, but when I talk about retract it is actively pulling the feet up. The drill in the video I would call flexing.
That kind of skiing and keeping the CoM level may be useful as a drill If you cannot reverse your ingrained up move, but I would not do it too much since it kills the dynamics of the turn.

 

[geepers]

maybe it is a minute difference, but when I talk about retract it is actively pulling the feet up. The drill in the video I would call flexing.
That kind of skiing and keeping the CoM level may be useful as a drill If you cannot reverse your ingrained up move, but I would not do it too much since it kills the dynamics of the turn.

Drills, like medical drugs, often have unwanted consequences. But not sure it's really hurting the dynamics of Benni Walsh's skiing...




It's useful drill for getting people mobile. Very useful for warming up on some flat or moderate terrain before heading into the bumps. I'd also contend that a skier who can do a good version of that drill has the skills to do a full retraction turns.

It's intended as a progression - as I wrote above be great to hear how others go about that.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Benni is definitely using his full range of motion.

 

[TheArchitect]

Your comments in red, mine in black. This will be a lot of words.

Currently from apex to transition I go from long outside leg to new inside leg by 'softening' my old outside leg.... If by "softening" you mean you shorten it, or flex it, then yes, this is the flex-to-release people refer to. Old outside leg (downhill leg) becomes new inside leg as you do this.

You don't say anything about new inside foot pull-back... As an addition to the flexion, you can slide that new inside foot back a bit along its length. Do this along with the flexion. It strengthens the effect.

...rolling my feet... As you flex that new inside leg to shorten it, if you also roll that foot (singular, one foot), that is good. I consider it extra credit, as in, extra good. Others will consider it an essential that must precede or accompany the leg flexion. The new outside foot should follow the lead of the new inside foot and roll as well from little toe edge to big toe edge without your conscious attention.

I transfer weight.... The weight will transfer on its own in a flexion turn. Are you pressing on that new outside foot/ski to "transfer weight"? Do you notice the weight transfer happening immediately as you flex that new inside leg? If you notice it immediately, that might be because your flexion is fast enough to lighten the pressure under your new inside ski. It has to go somewhere, so it goes to the new outside ski. OR.... you may be extending/pushing down/pressing on the new outside leg unconsciously. Try avoiding that. The weight transfer may not be immediate if you flex slowly, but it will happen on its own as the turn progresses. Your new outside leg will extend on its own in an unconscious way to keep its ski on the snow. That extension is not done to add or transfer pressure in a flex-to-release turn. Turn forces move the pressure to the outside ski in a flexion turn, not a movement of the new outside leg.

...which helps me topple inside the new turn.... As the new inside leg shortens, if you do nothing else with the other leg or your torso, your body as a unit will tilt downhill because one of its legs just shortened. Do you allow this tilt of the upper body? That's what people refer to as "toppling." Your head and shoulders will cross the skis to their downhill side; it's intoxicating. If you keep the upper body upright as the torso crosses the skis so that your head and shoulders don't fly across, that's still a flex-to-release turn. In this case you'll enter the turn angulated - since the torso won't be at the same tilt angle as the legs. This early angulation will reduce the maximum edge angle you'll get, but that's fine as long as you aren't chasing high speed hips-to-snow turns.

...should I be trying to pull the feet forward from apex to transition in order to get backside aft and pressure the tails so they don't skid... People will disagree about this one. You can slide the outside foot forward to weight its tail so it won't wash out. Or you can bring both forward for that backside-heavy thing, if you are a follower of Tom Gellie. Or you can do this: make your feet follow a sideways figure 8 beneath your CoM through the whole turn. At apex bring the new inside foot/old outside foot back up under you. This requires your new inside leg's flexion to start right after apex, which by definition is a flexion release done right. The new outside foot will follow along like a dog on a leash. This is Bob Barnes' infinity move (see 2:13-2:14 in this video ).

Am I even in the right ballpark... Sounds like you are to me. Since this is a hot topic and people think about this turn differently, you'll get differences of opinion. Should be fun.

I spent Saturday working on your suggestions and am definitely making progress. I can say with confidence that I'm not pushing and the weight transfer is happening naturally on its own. I'm not sure the best way to describe it but as I flex the old outside leg it's like the weight sort of floats from one ski to the other and suddenly the weight is on the new outside ski. I haven't eradicated the upward motion at transition completely but it's definitely a lot less and I'm more compact at transition. I spent a good amount of time just working on the flexing to transition and then added in the pulling of the new inside foot back. It feels a bit odd so I have more work to do on pulling the foot back. In the afternoon I tried adding in some toppling and moving aft in the second half of the turn but I was getting tired and my technique was getting sloppy as a result.

Anyway, thanks for the tips. I don't expect to get this to be second nature without a ton of practice but I can feel improvement happening in small steps so I appreciate the tips @LiquidFeet

 

[Noodler]

I spent Saturday working on your suggestions and am definitely making progress. I can say with confidence that I'm not pushing and the weight transfer is happening naturally on its own. I'm not sure the best way to describe it but as I flex the old outside leg it's like the weight sort of floats from one ski to the other and suddenly the weight is on the new outside ski. I haven't eradicated the upward motion at transition completely but it's definitely a lot less and I'm more compact at transition. I spent a good amount of time just working on the flexing to transition and then added in the pulling of the new inside foot back. It feels a bit odd so I have more work to do on pulling the foot back. In the afternoon I tried adding in some toppling and moving aft in the second half of the turn but I was getting tired and my technique was getting sloppy as a result.

Anyway, thanks for the tips. I don't expect to get this to be second nature without a ton of practice but I can feel improvement happening in small steps so I appreciate the tips @LiquidFeet

Just a tip on the foot pullback. There are nuances to this stuff that are "glossed over" or never mentioned. With the foot pullback, the primary movements are to power it via hamstring contraction and dorsiflexion in conjunction. What is missed is that the inside knee is NOT pulled back. You do not want your knees to be side-by-side unless you want to look like Stein (or me from the 1980s and 90s ). There will be natural tip lead, but we want to keep it in check so that the inside ski is in the best position for the new turn to get sufficient tip pressure and achieve early edge angles in the new turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Noodler has pointed out something I forget to mention when describing this move online. Demos include what he points out in that post above but we don't have demos going on here.

As he says, it's just the foot that gets pulled back, not the knee, and not the hip above. And the foot doesn't move much; the inside tip lead remains.

If you keep the inside ski on the snow while sliding it back a bit, this backwards slide requires the ankle to close more, to dorsiflex more. If you lift the tail a bit with the pull-back, the extra dorsiflexion isn't required.

You'll feel this slight backwards pull hitting an invisible "wall" of resistance; that's good. It doesn't take much of a pull to hit that wall. The backwards slide presses that ski's tip into the snow, and if you've tipped it onto its little toe edge, it presses the little toe edge of that tip into the snow. This too is good; it strengthens the turn, and as @Noodler points out, positions the inside foot in a good place for the next turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I spent Saturday working on your suggestions and am definitely making progress. I can say with confidence that I'm not pushing and the weight transfer is happening naturally on its own. I'm not sure the best way to describe it but as I flex the old outside leg it's like the weight sort of floats from one ski to the other and suddenly the weight is on the new outside ski. ....

@TheArchitect, great! That flexion usually lightens the underfoot pressure all by itself, and the pressure has to go somewhere, so it transfers on its own to the other foot.

Tipping that foot inside to boot onto its little toe edge doesn't do anything for the pressure/weight transfer, but it does do something very good. Let this ankle-tipping (or foot-tipping) be bonded to the flexing. Glue them together. You'll like the result. The inside ski will behave well and contribute to the turn with more power.

Then focus on the slide-back. Be absolutely it's just the foot, not the knee, that goes back relative to your hips/torso. You may notice a definite sharpening of the turn if you're going slow enough to feel things happening on a micro-level (which is a good thing to do). Bundle that pull-back with the flexion/tipping so the three things become your flexion movement in whole.

Lastly, focus on purging that extension that will inevitably hang on. It's difficult to purge. That will take time. Working at a slow pace on low pitch terrain will allow you to feel the effects of each of these.

I write so much about skiing because I'm not skiing this season. I envy you your time on snow, working on stuff. Enjoy some of that for me.

 

[TheArchitect]

Just a tip on the foot pullback. There are nuances to this stuff that are "glossed over" or never mentioned. With the foot pullback, the primary movements are to power it via hamstring contraction and dorsiflexion in conjunction. What is missed is that the inside knee is NOT pulled back. You do not want your knees to be side-by-side unless you want to look like Stein (or me from the 1980s and 90s ). There will be natural tip lead, but we want to keep it in check so that the inside ski is in the best position for the new turn to get sufficient tip pressure and achieve early edge angles in the new turn.

That's good to know and helpful. It's hard to 'pull the foot back' properly when you don't know how the body mechanics are supposed to work. I think by dumb luck I was just pulling the foot back and not the knee but I'll pay attention this weekend.

@Noodler has pointed out something I forget to mention when describing this move online. Demos include what he points out in that post above but we don't have demos going on here.

As he says, it's just the foot that gets pulled back, not the knee, and not the hip above. And the foot doesn't move much; the inside tip lead remains.

If you keep the inside ski on the snow while sliding it back a bit, this backwards slide requires the ankle to close more, to dorsiflex more. If you lift the tail a bit with the pull-back, the extra dorsiflexion isn't required.

You'll feel this slight backwards pull hitting an invisible "wall" of resistance; that's good. It doesn't take much of a pull to hit that wall. The backwards slide presses that ski's tip into the snow, and if you've tipped it onto its little toe edge, it presses the little toe edge of that tip into the snow. This too is good; it strengthens the turn, and as @Noodler points out, positions the inside foot in a good place for the next turn.

I definitely hit that wall. I could feel the foot stop and thought "that's all I can do?"

@TheArchitect, great! That flexion usually lightens the underfoot pressure all by itself, and the pressure has to go somewhere, so it transfers on its own to the other foot.

Tipping that foot inside to boot onto its little toe edge doesn't do anything for the pressure/weight transfer, but it does do something very good. Let this ankle-tipping (or foot-tipping) be bonded to the flexing. Glue them together. You'll like the result. The inside ski will behave well and contribute to the turn with more power.

Then focus on the slide-back. Be absolutely it's just the foot, not the knee, that goes back relative to your hips/torso. You may notice a definite sharpening of the turn if you're going slow enough to feel things happening on a micro-level (which is a good thing to do). Bundle that pull-back with the flexion/tipping so the three things become your flexion movement in whole.

Lastly, focus on purging that extension that will inevitably hang on. It's difficult to purge. That will take time. Working at a slow pace on low pitch terrain will allow you to feel the effects of each of these.

I write so much about skiing because I'm not skiing this season. I envy you your time on snow, working on stuff. Enjoy some of that for me.

Once the flex and foot pull back feel more natural I'll focus more on the tipping. I'm sure I'm doing it to some extent but I'm worried if I try to re-train everything at once I'll never get anything totally locked in. I'm sorry you're not able to ski but I appreciate the writing!

 

[mdf]

The main reason I believe this to be true is not only from my own experience in trying to reverse the movements of using an up move, but also from the many folks I know who have gone through the same program and have experienced the same challenge.

I didn't buy into Noodler's "program" but I do think his preferred style is the best one most (though not all) of the time. I was a heel-pusher for 20 years before an instructor explained a different way to ski. It took years to scrub out those ingrained movement patterns.

What's interesting is that in bumps you absolutely have to flex to release. This probably means that people that advocate a up move don't or can't ski bumps.

Old-fashioned up-move extension releases can work in the bumps, just not very well. I skied bumps with one for years. It lead to a "double-pump" pattern, where I would go down and up once to absorb the bump, and then down and up again for my up-unweighted turn. (It took video for me tor realize what I was doing.) As you can imagine, it sets a speed limit and causes frequent timing errors.

 

[Rod9301]

Sure anything might work, but why not do it the right way? Faster, less energy, better line

 

[Mike King]

Sure anything might work, but why not do it the right way? Faster, less energy, better line

In the deepest ruts, you may need both an extension movement and a flexion movement. The extension movement comes from the ribcage to project the upper body mass up over the bump. The flexion movement comes from the lower body to absorb the bump. If you are successful, then the upper body and lower body will rejoin each other on the downside of the bump.

Not many can do this, but it is a technique that the folk skiing the steepest biggest mogul lines own.

Mike

 

[GB_Ski]

I'm terrible at understanding skiing from words. I saw this popped up in my youtube list. Is this the flexion movement we are talking about?

 

[Mike King]

I'm terrible at understanding skiing from words. I saw this popped up in my youtube list. Is this the flexion movement we are talking about?

No.

 

[Mike B]

Tell that to the dudes that made a fortune on TBL. HAHA
I like Reilly a lot - he lives to ski. I like his analysis on the Odermat vs. Zubcic video and think it's valid, but there is more to it in my honest opinion. To keep it simple, the friction wasn't as much about aerodynamic friction as much as ski friction. There is a time to create lots of pressure and other times it's not needed as much. So, Reillys initial statement about line was true.

 

[Tony Storaro]

I write so much about skiing because I'm not skiing this season. I envy you your time on snow, working on stuff. Enjoy some of that for me.

Please keep it coming.
Be assured that everything you say on this forum is well noted, taken to heart and immediately put into practice on the slopes.
I personally learned a lot from your posts and they are helping me greatly improve in certain areas I find my skiing lacking...that is in all of them...

Your efforts are greatly appreciated!