Extend vs Flex (taken from video thread)

[geepers]

Humans will believe what's convenient to believe, what suits them, what they want to believe, what makes them feel good, what they've always believed and what's worked for them. They do this even when evidence to the contrary is presented clearly, right in front of them.

Facts, logic, and reason don't dislodge firmly held beliefs - for many people. Their identity is tied to their beliefs, and changing beliefs means betraying who they are.

Recent history testifies to how many people are capable of affirming an alternate reality not supported by facts. Why should skiers be any different?

 

[Noodler]

@geepers - regarding the "difficulty" in learning and truly owning a flex to release transition...

The main reason I believe this to be true is not only from my own experience in trying to reverse the movements of using an up move, but also from the many folks I know who have gone through the same program and have experienced the same challenge.

When using an up move to release, you're tall at transition and short at the turn apex. Flex to release requires being compact at transition and tall at the apex. It's tough to completely change how you go about making a ski turn. Especially when most skiers who use an up move combine it with twisting/pivoting a flat ski to make a turn. Flexing to release and tipping a ski early in the turn were very foreign concepts when I started to learn this way to make a turn. This was after more than 25 years of skiing with the up move and pivot. This is why Razie and I both question whether some comments about flex to release are coming from skiers who truly "own" this movement pattern.

 

[dj61]

2 distinct disadvantages of "flex to release"

1 - Takes more strength. Biomechanically when you are flexed you must use more muscle strength than relying on your skeletal structure to resist pressure as it increases.
2 - It is harder to be balanced for/aft over the ski. When coming through transition flexed deeply with both legs it takes more skill to recenter and use the ski design effectively through the turn.

Both of these are killers for recreational skiers. Most of them lack the strength and the skill to effectively balance and pressure the ski trying to utilize this technique.

2 things you see with most skiers trying to use flexion as their release is that they are always back and they don't pressure the ski until late into the turn.

Rewatch some of the videos posted in the personal video thread and you will see this in those that are trying to use this technique.

Wrong twice.

 

[Loki1]

Well I can see I am extremely out of my depth here. Enjoy the kool aid!

 

[Rod9301]

What's interesting is that in bumps you absolutely have to flex to release. This probably means that people that advocate a up move don't or can't ski bumps.

 

[Scruffy]

What's interesting is that in bumps you absolutely have to flex to release. This probably means that people that advocate a up move don't or can't ski bumps.

Or they can do both flex and extend releases. What's so hard for some of you to understand that? These either or arguments for purity are just silly.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

What's interesting is that in bumps you absolutely have to flex to release. This probably means that people that advocate a up move don't or can't ski bumps.

You'd think, right? I understudied a bumps clinic with a PSIA-E examiner who was totally teaching up-release in the bumps. My mind was blown. When participants in the clinic were asking me questions about it I was almost speechless. After a while I could see his point, but it sure isn't what I teach.

 

[JESinstr]

Back in the day, when it was asked of our French Canadian Assistant Director, "Pete (Pierre) how do you ski the bumps?" He simply replied, "Well, it depends on zee bump".

 

[Noodler]

Or they can do both flex and extend releases. What's so hard for some of you to understand that? These either or arguments for purity are just silly.

I really want to see a video of a skier using extension releases in the moguls. That should be good for a chuckle.

 

[Scruffy]

I really want to see a video of a skier using extension releases in the moguls. That should be good for a chuckle.

Might want to check with Erik on that

I never said I'd advocate extension releases ( as we're talking about here with respect to carving ) in moguls. Rod said those who don't have flex to release in their skiing repertoire probably don't or can't ski moguls. My comments, in that context, makes perfect sense.

 

[Noodler]

I really want to see a video of a skier using extension releases in the moguls. That should be good for a chuckle.

A friend of mine found this example of skiers using extension releases to ski moguls...

 

[WadeHoliday]

Humans will believe what's convenient to believe, what suits them, what they want to believe, what makes them feel good, what they've always believed and what's worked for them. They do this even when evidence to the contrary is presented clearly, right in front of them.

Facts, logic, and reason don't dislodge firmly held beliefs - for many people. Their identity is tied to their beliefs, and changing beliefs means betraying who they are.

Recent history testifies to how many people are capable of affirming an alternate reality not supported by facts. Why should skiers be any different?

good point, LF.
I've enjoyed reading some of this thread, some good thoughts and illustrations, but I have to admit, this discussion reminds me a lot of other super thin "divisions" in the things we currently do to create "identity".
In MTB, there is the "pick a wheelsize and be a dick about it", (or now, "pick an ebike vs. a mtn bike and be a jerk about it") now here, there is "pick your preferred ski turn transition and be a prick about it" mentality.
Or even, "you only don't agree with me because you suck."

I definitely see the value and expertise in this discussion, but the HH, "my way or the highway" mentality espoused by some here ruins my appetite (and this is coming from a guy who taught pmts methods for years in the early 90's for EricD's AllMtnSkiPros.)

Regarding turn transitions, It is interesting to see the historical perspectives, mixed with the high end coaching perspectives, mixed with the "i believe this and I need to share it", evangelistic perspectives.

 

[Racetiger]

Well I can see I am extremely out of my depth here. Enjoy the kool aid!

Ha! It's like Jamestown in up in here.

 

[D. Trenker]

I really want to see a video of a skier using extension releases in the moguls. That should be good for a chuckle.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Might want to check with Erik on that

I never said I'd advocate extension releases ( as we're talking about here with respect to carving ) in moguls. Rod said those who don't have flex to release in their skiing repertoire probably don't or can't ski moguls. My comments, in that context, makes perfect sense.

If I had a video of that clinic, people would lose their minds. It would have it's own thread on a certain forum dedicated to hating on PSIA. They'd love the part where he had us doing pivot slips with flex and extend timed so that the extend was with the skis across the hill and flex was in the fall line. As the demo dummy, I have to tell you that felt pretty backwards to me. I definitely dd not get it on the first try.

 

[Noodler]

What exactly was the point of your post? No extension going on here for the tiny little bit of mogul skiing shown at the end.

 

[Noodler]

good point, LF.
I've enjoyed reading some of this thread, some good thoughts and illustrations, but I have to admit, this discussion reminds me a lot of other super thin "divisions" in the things we currently do to create "identity".
In MTB, there is the "pick a wheelsize and be a dick about it", (or now, "pick an ebike vs. a mtn bike and be a jerk about it") now here, there is "pick your preferred ski turn transition and be a prick about it" mentality.
Or even, "you only don't agree with me because you suck."

I definitely see the value and expertise in this discussion, but the HH, "my way or the highway" mentality espoused by some here ruins my appetite (and this is coming from a guy who taught pmts methods for years in the early 90's for EricD's AllMtnSkiPros.)

Regarding turn transitions, It is interesting to see the historical perspectives, mixed with the high end coaching perspectives, mixed with the "i believe this and I need to share it", evangelistic perspectives.

Wade - this isn't about the teaching system "that will not be named" or HH one bit. This is simply about the pros and cons for the choice of release method used when skiing. The fact that pretty much every WC-level SL skier uses a flexion based release in order to achieve the fastest turns and early high edge angles should say a lot to every skier. Learning flexion based releases is about learning to ski like the best skiers in the world. Extension releases are the "default" skiing method for the uninitiated.

Learning to turn using flexion based releases will open up every part of the mountain and every snow condition for skiers. I'm sorry if you feel like some of us are evangelizing, but most skiers don't hear this information from anywhere else. If it weren't for some close friends that I trusted, and seeing their skiing level vastly improve, I never would've seen the light myself. I'm just passing it forward on an Internet forum.

 

[geepers]

@geepers - regarding the "difficulty" in learning and truly owning a flex to release transition...

The main reason I believe this to be true is not only from my own experience in trying to reverse the movements of using an up move, but also from the many folks I know who have gone through the same program and have experienced the same challenge.

When using an up move to release, you're tall at transition and short at the turn apex. Flex to release requires being compact at transition and tall at the apex. It's tough to completely change how you go about making a ski turn. Especially when most skiers who use an up move combine it with twisting/pivoting a flat ski to make a turn. Flexing to release and tipping a ski early in the turn were very foreign concepts when I started to learn this way to make a turn. This was after more than 25 years of skiing with the up move and pivot. This is why Razie and I both question whether some comments about flex to release are coming from skiers who truly "own" this movement pattern.

Not sure it's what you are trying to say. But this is what I hear....

Got stuck in some weird movement pattern for low performance skidded turns for 25 years and it took a while to break out of it. Now comparing this same low performance movement pattern with a different approach for some reason.​

It's a weird movement pattern - tall at transition and short at apex. Any vid?

What's interesting is that in bumps you absolutely have to flex to release. This probably means that people that advocate a up move don't or can't ski bumps.

It's an equally bad idea to flex into a trough.

I'll try rewriting your statement....

What's interesting is that in bumps you absolutely have to manage pressure. This probably means that people who advocate extending into peaks and flexing into troughs are going to have an interesting time.​

 

[Rod9301]

Not sure it's what you are trying to say. But this is what I hear....

Got stuck in some weird movement pattern for low performance skidded turns for 25 years and it took a while to break out of it. Now comparing this same low performance movement pattern with a different approach for some reason.​

It's a weird movement pattern - tall at transition and short at apex. Any vid?



It's an equally bad idea to flex into a trough.

I'll try rewriting your statement....

What's interesting is that in bumps you absolutely have to manage pressure. This probably means that people who advocate extending into peaks and flexing into troughs are going to have an interesting time.​

What i meant is that you absorb the bump, flexing the knees, pivot, then extend in the trough.
A lot of people extend at the top of the bump.

 

[Jamt]

What i meant is that you absorb the bump, flexing the knees, pivot, then extend in the trough.
A lot of people extend at the top of the bump.

I think this is a great source of misunderstanding. I have seen it many times.
When someone says they are pushing, others interpret that as extending. Even the person himself can think he is extending.
However, whether you are extending or flexing depends on the external forces.
If the person is running into a bump, even if he is pushing he is likely also flexing.
It does not really matter, what is important is the pressure management.
Pushing to release the skis versus toppling with a long outside leg continuing extended through transition can both be seen as extension releases, but they are vastly different in terms or pressure management.
That is one of the reasons I don't like the concept of flexing vs extension release. It is too broad.

If you think you must aggressively absorb every bump by flexing you will very rapidly run into speed control issues.
It is quite similar to the up-down acceleration thread. You have to support your weight on average, but where do you put the pressure?
In an SL turn with gates you want it as early as possible to get redirection and not lose speed, but if you try that in bumps you will go very fast.
Then it is better to have more pressure when the slope is not steep, or to scrape it off with a "steering angle" at the backside.