Extend vs Flex (taken from video thread)

[Mike King]

What exactly was the point of your post? No extension going on here for the tiny little bit of mogul skiing shown at the end.

What he actually is doing is accelerating his upper body mass up over the bump before it collides with the bump so that it rejoins the lower body mass (new outside leg) on the downhill side of the bump. A pre-jump.

 

[Noodler]

What he actually is doing is accelerating his upper body mass up over the bump before it collides with the bump so that it rejoins the lower body mass (new outside leg) on the downhill side of the bump. A pre-jump.

So he's extending early out of the trough to get tall enough to have sufficient RoM to kind of "jump" over the top of the next bump with a strong retraction/flexion. It's a proactive way to take the hit out of really big moguls. I use that technique often (and was just teaching that to a buddy this past Friday).

 

[Roundturns]

Jonny references a chain link fence in that demo. I didn’t understand the “gist” of what he was describing regarding a chain link fence.

 

[locknload]

A friend of mine found this example of skiers using extension releases to ski moguls...

Wow! LMFAO! Squirrel and Eddie Ferguson were something. Did they ever provide an injury report after these events? Eddie was throwing himself off every feature with iron crosses and other crazy stuff. Their hands were sooo high with those long poles. Extension indeed!!! Doesn't look fun...even though they are/were incredible skiers with amazing athleticism.

 

[Noodler]

I ended up skiing this morning at LL with a PSIA Level 3. I was skiing off of #4 and saw this skier coming down making beautiful arcing carves uses flexion/retraction releases and was quite impressed. I managed to catch up to her and learned that she was Monika Mayer, an instructor at LL, but she's not teaching this season. She grew up in Prague and learned to ski all across Europe in her youth. We had some great chairlift conversations all morning, but the gist of what she said rings very true to me. She can create ski turns using multiple different techniques and demonstrate them all as needed. However, when she's out freeskiing for herself, she's going to use the most efficient and productive skiing that provides the level of speed control and terrain handling required. Every turn I saw her make this morning used flexion based releases (she preferred to use the term retraction). She also said that she does sometimes teach flex-based releases to her clients, but she noted how challenging it is because everyone that comes into a lesson uses extension. She said it's very hard to help skiers learn to retract the old outside leg and not push up with the inside leg in response. The urge to have an up move is very strong and hard to eliminate.

 

[locknload]

Always been my favorite bumper....love the simple explanation and the visual. I want to ski the way he does so I'm gonna do it how he tells me to.

 

[Mike King]

I ended up skiing this morning at LL with a PSIA Level 3. I was skiing off of #4 and saw this skier coming down making beautiful arcing carves uses flexion/retraction releases and was quite impressed. I managed to catch up to her and learned that she was Monika Mayer, an instructor at LL, but she's not teaching this season. She grew up in Prague and learned to ski all across Europe in her youth. We had some great chairlift conversations all morning, but the gist of what she said rings very true to me. She can create ski turns using multiple different techniques and demonstrate them all as needed. However, when she's out freeskiing for herself, she's going to use the most efficient and productive skiing that provides the level of speed control and terrain handling required. Every turn I saw her make this morning used flexion based releases (she preferred to use the term retraction). She also said that she does sometimes teach flex-based releases to her clients, but she noted how challenging it is because everyone that comes into a lesson uses extension. She said it's very hard to help skiers learn to retract the old outside leg and not push up with the inside leg in response. The urge to have an up move is very strong and hard to eliminate.

And why is that? Because it is falling. And our bodies and brains are wired to prevent/minimize falling.

 

[locknload]

Jonny references a chain link fence in that demo. I didn’t understand the “gist” of what he was describing regarding a chain link fence.

In some of his other videos as he describes "absorption" which is a term that makes a ton of sense to me...he talks about pulling your binding to your butt which helps you stay forward and drive your hips down and over the bump and "extend" your feet/legs into the next trough and then it all repeats. This is how I've been taught basic mogul skiing. You guys are way deep in the weeds and some of it gets bit technical for me. "rolling the little toe" is how I was taught to imitate a new turn when my skis are flat without much up or down". I'm not a racer so I'm not worried about getting my hip way over on the snow when I ski...I'm interested in a very quite upper body with my skis working underneath me in a fluid manner. I get the angulation and getting mass inside the turn even as I'm biased toward my downhill ski...AND upper body pointed down the hill. Whether I "extend" to do that on flat terrain...I'm not sure.

 

[TheArchitect]

^^This. Learning to flex the new inside leg to release that old turn does amazing things for the pivoting, leaning-in, backseat, push-to-edge, bracing skier. It opens up the whole world of advanced skiing.

Quick and probably dumb question. I'm working on flexing instead of extension. What exactly are the body mechanics for doing this? Currently from apex to transition I go from long outside leg to new inside leg by 'softening' my old outside leg as I transfer weight which helps me topple inside the new turn. Besides rolling my feet should I be trying to pull the feet forward from apex to transition in order to get backside aft and pressure the tails so they don't skid? Am I even in the right ballpark with that thinking?

 

[Steve]

Yes you are in the ballpark. Retraction is more about softening and flexing the old outside leg.
Extension releases are more about extending off of the old inside leg.

In most turns you're doing both.

In a true flex to release you retract both legs, so the new outside leg gets shorter at first, not longer.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Quick and probably dumb question. I'm working on flexing instead of extension. What exactly are the body mechanics for doing this? Currently from apex to transition I go from long outside leg to new inside leg by 'softening' my old outside leg as I transfer weight which helps me topple inside the new turn. Besides rolling my feet should I be trying to pull the feet forward from apex to transition in order to get backside aft and pressure the tails so they don't skid? Am I even in the right ballpark with that thinking?

Your comments in red, mine in black. This will be a lot of words.

Currently from apex to transition I go from long outside leg to new inside leg by 'softening' my old outside leg.... If by "softening" you mean you shorten it, or flex it, then yes, this is the flex-to-release people refer to. Old outside leg (downhill leg) becomes new inside leg as you do this.

You don't say anything about new inside foot pull-back... As an addition to the flexion, you can slide that new inside foot back a bit along its length. Do this along with the flexion. It strengthens the effect.

...rolling my feet... As you flex that new inside leg to shorten it, if you also roll that foot (singular, one foot), that is good. I consider it extra credit, as in, extra good. Others will consider it an essential that must precede or accompany the leg flexion. The new outside foot should follow the lead of the new inside foot and roll as well from little toe edge to big toe edge without your conscious attention.

I transfer weight.... The weight will transfer on its own in a flexion turn. Are you pressing on that new outside foot/ski to "transfer weight"? Do you notice the weight transfer happening immediately as you flex that new inside leg? If you notice it immediately, that might be because your flexion is fast enough to lighten the pressure under your new inside ski. It has to go somewhere, so it goes to the new outside ski. OR.... you may be extending/pushing down/pressing on the new outside leg unconsciously. Try avoiding that. The weight transfer may not be immediate if you flex slowly, but it will happen on its own as the turn progresses. Your new outside leg will extend on its own in an unconscious way to keep its ski on the snow. That extension is not done to add or transfer pressure in a flex-to-release turn. Turn forces move the pressure to the outside ski in a flexion turn, not a movement of the new outside leg.

...which helps me topple inside the new turn.... As the new inside leg shortens, if you do nothing else with the other leg or your torso, your body as a unit will tilt downhill because one of its legs just shortened. Do you allow this tilt of the upper body? That's what people refer to as "toppling." Your head and shoulders will cross the skis to their downhill side; it's intoxicating. If you keep the upper body upright as the torso crosses the skis so that your head and shoulders don't fly across, that's still a flex-to-release turn. In this case you'll enter the turn angulated - since the torso won't be at the same tilt angle as the legs. This early angulation will reduce the maximum edge angle you'll get, but that's fine as long as you aren't chasing high speed hips-to-snow turns.

...should I be trying to pull the feet forward from apex to transition in order to get backside aft and pressure the tails so they don't skid... People will disagree about this one. You can slide the outside foot forward to weight its tail so it won't wash out. Or you can bring both forward for that backside-heavy thing, if you are a follower of Tom Gellie. Or you can do this: make your feet follow a sideways figure 8 beneath your CoM through the whole turn. At apex bring the new inside foot/old outside foot back up under you. This requires your new inside leg's flexion to start right after apex, which by definition is a flexion release done right. The new outside foot will follow along like a dog on a leash. This is Bob Barnes' infinity move (see 2:13-2:14 in this video ).

Am I even in the right ballpark... Sounds like you are to me. Since this is a hot topic and people think about this turn differently, you'll get differences of opinion. Should be fun.

 

[Noodler]

I'll add that there are multiple types of flexion based releases. I primarily use 2 of the types: one-footed release and two-footed (some skiers refer to this as a retraction turn). I use the one-footed release primarily on hard groomed snow and the two-footed release in off-piste variable snow and deeper snow.

I mention this because the previous posts are describing a one-footed release, where the release of the "support" by flexing the outside/stance ski results in a transfer of support to the LTE of the inside ski. It's important to understand just how "powerful" this move is for creating awesome carved ski turns on the hard pack. Establishing the balance on the new outside/stance ski early in the turn, before you've even rolled onto the new edges, provides improved edge grip early in the turn. It really is almost a magic move to me as it provides supreme confidence that the new stance ski is "already there" for me. It ensures that the support will be there and so I can trust it as I develop higher and higher edge angles. You just do not get the same effect if you roll that ski onto the new edge without first establishing your balance and pressure on it.

 

[geepers]

Quick and probably dumb question. I'm working on flexing instead of extension. What exactly are the body mechanics for doing this? Currently from apex to transition I go from long outside leg to new inside leg by 'softening' my old outside leg as I transfer weight which helps me topple inside the new turn. Besides rolling my feet should I be trying to pull the feet forward from apex to transition in order to get backside aft and pressure the tails so they don't skid? Am I even in the right ballpark with that thinking?

Here's a progression for release - from double extension release through to a single leg flexing release (inside leg). The latter much in line with @LiquidFeet post. Drawing your attention to a couple of points:
1. Anticipation of the upper body to the inside of the new turn mentioned at 0:35. (If the torso is already on the way out of the old turn - or about to move out - then the effort/movement involved in initiating a transition is very small. Of course can be a big movement for more rapid effect.)
2. Development of the platform on the new outside ski mentioned at 2:25. (Doing drills such as up and over, high five, downhill skating are all great for this. So are slippy grippy turns.)
3. All skiing is much easier with a flash new ski suit.



Also worth watching the same guy's earlier vid wrt point 1 above. (Alas, old ski suit...)





All these transitions involve hips rising into transition. To progress on to double flex to release - keeping hips low - a possible path is through retraction/extension turns. If able to do a passable version of these then should have the balance skills to do them in carving situations. (Note: two flash ski suits are even better.)



Be interested to find out how others have progressed from high hip transitions into double flex to release.

 

[Steve]

I agree with @Noodler that transferring the weight to the new outside ski before changing edges is a magic movement.

I took my long time now 9 year old student to the next level in two 1 hour lessons, just by coaching him to get on the "new ski" early. Didn't have to say outside or uphill, he knew which was the "new ski." I'd ski behind him on steeper terrain shouting "New Ski" very soon after he'd make a turn. As soon as he started traversing "NEW SKI."

It's all it took. He skied non stop down a steep blue making round turns without a wedge for the first time ever, just by doing this. Oh also and "drop the hammer." Telling him to move his arm and shoulder down over that new ski.

I video'd him, and watching him move that arm down and get some angulation was very cool.

 

[TheArchitect]

Yes you are in the ballpark. Retraction is more about softening and flexing the old outside leg.
Extension releases are more about extending off of the old inside leg.

In most turns you're doing both.

In a true flex to release you retract both legs, so the new outside leg gets shorter at first, not longer.

Your comments in red, mine in black. This will be a lot of words.

Currently from apex to transition I go from long outside leg to new inside leg by 'softening' my old outside leg.... If by "softening" you mean you shorten it, or flex it, then yes, this is the flex-to-release people refer to. Old outside leg (downhill leg) becomes new inside leg as you do this.

You don't say anything about new inside foot pull-back... As an addition to the flexion, you can slide that new inside foot back a bit along its length. Do this along with the flexion. It strengthens the effect.

...rolling my feet... As you flex that new inside leg to shorten it, if you also roll that foot (singular, one foot), that is good. I consider it extra credit, as in, extra good. Others will consider it an essential that must precede or accompany the leg flexion. The new outside foot should follow the lead of the new inside foot and roll as well from little toe edge to big toe edge without your conscious attention.

I transfer weight.... The weight will transfer on its own in a flexion turn. Are you pressing on that new outside foot/ski to "transfer weight"? Do you notice the weight transfer happening immediately as you flex that new inside leg? If you notice it immediately, that might be because your flexion is fast enough to lighten the pressure under your new inside ski. It has to go somewhere, so it goes to the new outside ski. OR.... you may be extending/pushing down/pressing on the new outside leg unconsciously. Try avoiding that. The weight transfer may not be immediate if you flex slowly, but it will happen on its own as the turn progresses. Your new outside leg will extend on its own in an unconscious way to keep its ski on the snow. That extension is not done to add or transfer pressure in a flex-to-release turn. Turn forces move the pressure to the outside ski in a flexion turn, not a movement of the new outside leg.

...which helps me topple inside the new turn.... As the new inside leg shortens, if you do nothing else with the other leg or your torso, your body as a unit will tilt downhill because one of its legs just shortened. Do you allow this tilt of the upper body? That's what people refer to as "toppling." Your head and shoulders will cross the skis to their downhill side; it's intoxicating. If you keep the upper body upright as the torso crosses the skis so that your head and shoulders don't fly across, that's still a flex-to-release turn. In this case you'll enter the turn angulated - since the torso won't be at the same tilt angle as the legs. This early angulation will reduce the maximum edge angle you'll get, but that's fine as long as you aren't chasing high speed hips-to-snow turns.

...should I be trying to pull the feet forward from apex to transition in order to get backside aft and pressure the tails so they don't skid... People will disagree about this one. You can slide the outside foot forward to weight its tail so it won't wash out. Or you can bring both forward for that backside-heavy thing, if you are a follower of Tom Gellie. Or you can do this: make your feet follow a sideways figure 8 beneath your CoM through the whole turn. At apex bring the new inside foot/old outside foot back up under you. This requires your new inside leg's flexion to start right after apex, which by definition is a flexion release done right. The new outside foot will follow along like a dog on a leash. This is Bob Barnes' infinity move (see 2:13-2:14 in this video ).

Am I even in the right ballpark... Sounds like you are to me. Since this is a hot topic and people think about this turn differently, you'll get differences of opinion. Should be fun.

I need to read these posts when I'm not tired but it does clarify so thanks! I would say that I've always tended to push up on the leg to extend up but now I'm doing more of what you're describing. When I say softening I guess it's another way of saying that I"m not pushing up with the old outside leg in order to move my weight but instead allowing my knee of the old outside leg to come up and my body shift across the skis inside the new turn. It feels very odd and exciting at the same time. There's a lot more flow and less energy is being used. It's not always pretty as I have a lifetime of muscle memory/bad habits to undo but at least it appears I'm heading in the right direction.

 

[TheArchitect]

I'll add that there are multiple types of flexion based releases. I primarily use 2 of the types: one-footed release and two-footed (some skiers refer to this as a retraction turn). I use the one-footed release primarily on hard groomed snow and the two-footed release in off-piste variable snow and deeper snow.

I mention this because the previous posts are describing a one-footed release, where the release of the "support" by flexing the outside/stance ski results in a transfer of support to the LTE of the inside ski. It's important to understand just how "powerful" this move is for creating awesome carved ski turns on the hard pack. Establishing the balance on the new outside/stance ski early in the turn, before you've even rolled onto the new edges, provides improved edge grip early in the turn. It really is almost a magic move to me as it provides supreme confidence that the new stance ski is "already there" for me. It ensures that the support will be there and so I can trust it as I develop higher and higher edge angles. You just do not get the same effect if you roll that ski onto the new edge without first establishing your balance and pressure on it.

I don't think I'm self-aware enough to know if I'm doing one or two-footed release but I'll pay attention this weekend.

Here's a progression for release - from double extension release through to a single leg flexing release (inside leg). The latter much in line with @LiquidFeet post. Drawing your attention to a couple of points:
1. Anticipation of the upper body to the inside of the new turn mentioned at 0:35. (If the torso is already on the way out of the old turn - or about to move out - then the effort/movement involved in initiating a transition is very small. Of course can be a big movement for more rapid effect.)
2. Development of the platform on the new outside ski mentioned at 2:25. (Doing drills such as up and over, high five, downhill skating are all great for this. So are slippy grippy turns.)
3. All skiing is much easier with a flash new ski suit.



Also worth watching the same guy's earlier vid wrt point 1 above. (Alas, old ski suit...)





All these transitions involve hips rising into transition. To progress on to double flex to release - keeping hips low - a possible path is through retraction/extension turns. If able to do a passable version of these then should have the balance skills to do them in carving situations. (Note: two flash ski suits are even better.)



Be interested to find out how others have progressed from high hip transitions into double flex to release.

Thanks for posting this and I'll read through it tomorrow. Videos are a big help even if I'm not good with MA.

 

[Chris V.]

Be interested to find out how others have progressed from high hip transitions into double flex to release.

What I find helpful:

(1) Practice linking turns on mellow terrain while staying deeply flexed the whole time. Then allowing extension to come back in between transitions makes everything feel very relaxed by comparison.

(2) Use the force, Luke.

 

[geepers]

What I find helpful:

(1) Practice linking turns on mellow terrain while staying deeply flexed the whole time. Then allowing extension to come back in between transitions makes everything feel very relaxed by comparison.

(2) Use the force, Luke.

1. So that's a progression into retraction/extension turns?

Finding that SIA/TG vid you've posted in the MA threads interesting. That really encourages mobility of joints and a wider cone of control over fore-aft balance. Although it's really targeted at low mileage L2 (in a 4 level system) instructors training for their next level.

2.

 

[Chris V.]

1. So that's a progression into retraction/extension turns?

Retraction turns, anyway. I'm not sure what you mean by "retraction/extension." It probably doesn't qualify as a full progression, but I find it useful in strengthening the moves in my own skiing.

 

[geepers]

I'm not sure what you mean by "retraction/extension."

As per the turns at the cued point in the "Skiing TwoandTwo" vid above. Also called avalement turns. Retract into transition and then extend laterally into the apex of the new turn.