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Extend vs Flex (taken from video thread)

Mike B

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Which transition is 'better' depends on the terrain IMO. Talking about each in a vacuum without terrain is a bit too abstract for me - I need context. I have no racing background and just a recreational skiing schlub that concentrates on skiing moguls. So I will speak to what I ski the most... For bumps, both transitions are useful. Being able to perform a compact transition will make you more versatile in the bumps. But its not the only transition that is effective.

Is this a flexed/compact or extension release (time 2:55 in video)? It looks like extension to me.


He is still flexing to absorb a 'virtual bump' and you can see the flexion and extended release when he actually starts skiing the moguls. A compact transition would result in higher speed in the moguls, which may be fine if you can handle that level of performance, but if you want to ski all day at that speed may be too much wear and tear for skiing recreationally.

I find this very useful in moguls for controlling speed. You can see this type of extension release in the 'outside bank line' where he skies the bumps pretty tall throughout.


Traversing in extended position is useful in bumps -- if you want to shift lines in the moguls at turn completion, you have flexion available to do so. Since you are already extended, it is easy to cruise over a bump and have flexion available to absorb the neighboring bump.

For bumps that suit this method, this type of skiing can be really low impact, low effort, and fun way to ski bumps.

You can see the other lines through the bumps, the "inside wall line" and "rut line" could be skied faster with a compact/flexed transition. But do you really want to ski them fast? Is the run a marathon or a sprint? If the pitch is consistent or flattening, you have the energy, sure, shred them up. If the run is getting progressively steeper and bumps larger, you are tired, and have a long way to go yet, maybe not. May be time to change the approach.

PS - Video 1 of the series is below and emphasizes the importance of the compact transition for bumps:

Before I answer, why does it look like extension to you at 2:55?

Your point about traversing bumps extended relates back to my earlier comment about needing a push or better, an impulse when I'm too far inside with high edge angles at the finish of the turn. When that happens Im overflexed - there cannot be more flexion and the "push impulse" is a quick extension recovery move so I can flex once more to release. Once again, these are recovery moves, which like it or not IS a part of skiing rarely talked about, nor discussed or coached. Maybe thats why quite a few people say "Dont watch racers race, watch them free ski". That drives me nuts, frankly.
 

Seldomski

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Before I answer, why does it look like extension

He looked tall to me, that's all. Totally possible I have misjudged what is happening. I'm not skilled in MA. Compared to the last video 'most important move' , he looks extended not compact.
 

Rod9301

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Before I answer, why does it look like extension to you at 2:55?

Your point about traversing bumps extended relates back to my earlier comment about needing a push or better, an impulse when I'm too far inside with high edge angles at the finish of the turn. When that happens Im overflexed - there cannot be more flexion and the "push impulse" is a quick extension recovery move so I can flex once more to release. Once again, these are recovery moves, which like it or not IS a part of skiing rarely talked about, nor discussed or coached. Maybe thats why quite a few people say "Dont watch racers race, watch them free ski". That drives me nuts, frankly.
If you're inside with high edge angles, your outside leg should be straight, then it's easy to flex.
If your outside leg is bent, then straighten it at the end of the turn.
 

Loki1

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Take top racers, for example. You'd think they understand skiing the best. If they did, Ted and Bode would have created gazillions of little Teds and Bodes skiing at their level and would have written or co-authored tens of books on detailed biomechanics and technique, etc. Not happening, really. Why? Imho, they don't really understand what their bodies figured out. Yes, we all understand the basics, but they got good in spite of their coaching, not because of it (some of their less-known coaches I specifically exclude from this inferred deduction). Again, if the coaching made them great, we'd have a lot more like them on the WC - there's plenty of athletes around, to pick from. The Austrians seemingly have a factory somewhere, hidden in plain sight.

No doubt, they have plenty of awesome secret tactics insight and some understanding of technique and they must have had great coaches at some points, but detailed knowledge of biomechanics? Likely not - because it's not really taught around here.

Just to clarify your statement. Is this from your vast experience with the top racers? Your lengthy coaching career, working at the top level of alpine racing? Have you spoken directly with Ted or Bode about their understanding of technique and biomechanics? Or is it just your opinion? I'm sorry Razie but this statement shows your utter lack of understanding of what it takes to reach the World Cup level and the understanding of the athletes at that level. It is also completely arrogant to infer that if they only knew what you know they would be able to produce much more successful athletes.
 

James

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Lots of extending going on in that men’s gs today at Cortina. Talking about the top people, not bibs 90+. More surprising was in the women’s parallel. You’d think not with such a short course, but no. Didn’t see much of the men’s.
 

razie

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Lots of extending going on in that men’s gs today at Cortina. Talking about the top people, not bibs 90+. More surprising was in the women’s parallel. You’d think not with such a short course, but no. Didn’t see much of the men’s.

We can hope there is at least one extension per turn, on average...

Well, I finally found that race and took a look today. First skier is tall transition poster boy Odermatt and I see all flexing and just one tall transition, exactly before blowing out and almost into the net.


And compared with second skier Zubcic's line, you can argue that the wipeout was the direct result of the hopping up... although Kristofferson powered it up ok. It's always more interesting to figure out why they do what they do, imho it's the fall-away at the preceding red, two-three gates up from the wipeout, that's causing the havoc. Nice set!! Of course they figured it out after the first two...

Good find.
:beercheer:
 
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razie

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I think you're looking at the overall movement pattern and drawing conclusions. Yes they're stomping more on this course, but lateral, not up/down. At skis flat, legs are bent most of the time, although the movement pattern suggests otherwise. Slow it down.

For instance, compare with this course - what do you think explains the marked difference in approach?


The women's is even more interesting. Compare Holdener's approach with the American, same course, side by side

 
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Loki1

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I think you're looking at the overall movement pattern and drawing conclusions

I think that's the point. Rather than only looking for one particular movement and drawing all your conclusions from that. Which is what you are doing.
 

Rod9301

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I think that's the point. Rather than only looking for one particular movement and drawing all your conclusions from that. Which is what you are doing.
What's he saying, correctly it's that the skiers outside leg is straight and then it bends in the transition, which is a dead giveaway that he's flexing to release.
 

Loki1

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What's he saying, correctly it's that the skiers outside leg is straight and then it bends in the transition, which is a dead giveaway that he's flexing to release

Just because the outside leg flexes doesn’t mean it causes a release. If that is all you are looking for you will be wrong in your assessment of the cause of the release That’s the problem. He attributes an effect, regardless of the cause, to a particular movement. Then he actively seeks to observe that movement to back up his argument, ignoring anything else that would point to a different conclusion.
 

Noodler

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Just because the outside leg flexes doesn’t mean it causes a release. If that is all you are looking for you will be wrong in your assessment of the cause of the release That’s the problem. He attributes an effect, regardless of the cause, to a particular movement. Then he actively seeks to observe that movement to back up his argument, ignoring anything else that would point to a different conclusion.

Flexing the stance ski to remove the pressure, releases the ski as the balance is transferred to the LTE of the inside leg (which is about to become the new stance leg). How is this not a release of the old BTE of the outside ski?
 

geepers

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What's he saying, correctly it's that the skiers outside leg is straight and then it bends in the transition, which is a dead giveaway that he's flexing to release.

If flexing the old outside leg to release is the key criteria please put me down in the column that can both extend to release and flex to release. Even though I am a mere mortal.
 

razie

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I think that's the point. Rather than only looking for one particular movement and drawing all your conclusions from that. Which is what you are doing.

Nah - I'm always looking at specific movements of specific body parts to MA skiing, and flexion or extension of individual legs is a principal one, Loki1 - that's why I don't use "skills" but specific movements ;) - there are specific things to look for. With all skiers, but especially at this level, you need to slow it down and pay attention to specific movements in relation to the timing of the turn and assess them, I don't just say "oh, it kind'a looks like X, so it's X"... I wonder what feedback would be in that case "oh, maybe move more like John over there"...?

What's he saying, correctly it's that the skiers outside leg is straight and then it bends in the transition, which is a dead giveaway that he's flexing to release.

To be fair, not what they do in all turns - which is why it's important to seek to understand why they do what they do... to the contrary of some opinions expressed here (I should cancel my optometrist appointment), I never actually said they don't extend or that they did not extend in that run, but I was so flabbergasted about Odermatt's wipeout from a mistimed extension in the first run of an example of "look they extend", laughed so hard at that I stopped watching the rest.

Extension and pushing and juicing are not always "textbook" at this level. While we can see clear-cut flexion to release most of the time (note the second racer or the American on the left) and sometimes clear-cut push-ups say to stivot - especially racers at this level, can use their bodies in more ways than one, which is why putting them in any single narrowly defined bucket is not easy or advisable. The simple "flexed release" can easily be broken down into many sub-categories (early, late, weighted, unweighted, juiced etc) and if one is interested in coaching at any interesting level other than "release more like John over there" with a rate of success of 1/million/decade, he or she would need to understand the nuances, biomechanics and differences, what causes what and what outcomes each has and then obviously how to coach that with sets etc. Oftentimes, it's simple tactics (@James nailed one - getting tired) or simple terrain features that we can all see the having to deal with here and even other times it's subtle tactics like delaying pressure for offset etc - stuff that if you haven't coached, maybe it's hard to see (the relationship of course set to terrain, skier ability etc).

So when you look at it the way I do, you'll notice the release is mostly the same (which is why I'm brashly not giving in, but they're juicing the ski more than usual and stomping on it harder and with that, come up taller than usual, even leaving aside the obvious terrain features in some turns. Point being, they're not extending up there, they're not extending to stivot, which is the more common application and it's main negative outcome, so saying "they're extending" doesn't quite capture what's going on, either. At the same time, some of these turns, it's not a textbook flex to release either - so you see my categorization, which has to get somewhat nuanced. Very different things, with very different outcomes... proper timing of movements with terrain etc is extremely important!

Some will say I'm merely looking for confirmation and "oh my gosh, seriously" but I claim, brashly again, that I may know what I'm talking about to some extent and that there is a big difference in coaching up, forward, and pivot all the time, versus coaching a much bigger variety like flexing and stepping and juicing and coaching them and their association to tactics through a different set. You know, coaching things 101: the hard skills and the soft skills. We all naturally push and stand up very easy and default to that when the going gets tough - the much less obvious and common one is the one you need to insist on... one of the best coaches this century, WW, kept saying back many decades ago "racers must never train to reduce speed by skidding the ski, as that will become their default move". Yet here we are, decades later "look ma, they're skidding"!

Some won't get that and that's fine - although some here have coached at a reasonable level and should understand the differences - but maybe this is why everyone is mesmerized by Mikaela's ability to associate technique with inspection and tactics and her ability to coach her mates on what to do on certain sections, because... their coaches can't? QED, but I'm speculating, of course - I haven't been coached by her coaches, unfortunately, or rather by the other coaches - but you see the Dykster leaving and then her skiing goes down and he's not shy to point it out etc... but anyways - I do see so many examples of lack of understanding at the higher levels first-hand, that it is reasonable to speculate that.

So - coming back to the thing... you tend to do that (juice/flex/extend/whatever) when... a) or b)...? any thoughts as to why some choose different things for different runs, anyone? Especially looking at the men's first pitch above versus another course or looking the ladies' last pitch.

There are some other very interesting things going on with the Austrian girls in the parallel... the devil's always in the details... but if we're analyzing skiing at this level, let's do it... well, at this level, not an "oh, they're up-in weighting" level - that's not what's going on ;).

I know that while James knows what I'm talking about, I'm really curious if Loki1 does... given the posts above...
 
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geepers

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now do those simultaneously and I'll bring the popcorn ;)

:popcorn:

You left out my conditional "if"....

Simultaneously? Clearly not seen my confused release in shorts on steeps.

Is there a definition for the technical term "juicing the ski"? Would this help?

 

Loki1

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I'm really curious if Loki1 does... given the posts above...

I know nothing Razie. Obviously you are the only one that knows anything. I hope you can fix Mikaela's skiing, you are her only hope!
 

Jamt

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If you are in a high performance turn with lots of acceleration up and also"toppling", you need to retract/relax otherwise you will highside. Depending on the turn this does not necessarily mean that you flex the outside leg a lot. It also does not necessarily mean that you transfer weight to the inside leg, and it certainly isn't this weight transfer that causes the release or transition. If it is there was something wrong with the turn to begin with (if we are talking high performance).

In a turn with less forces you can do whatever to cause the release/transition. It depends on what you want/need.

In turn where you are pumping for speed you are often doing both, first you extend/push before the fall line. This causes an upwards movement/acceleration. Then after the fall line you retract/relax in order to to have a proper float into the next turn. (You need to flex otherwise you have not range of motion to push with in the next turn)
 

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