Extend vs Flex (taken from video thread)

[razie]

Aside: always thought flex to release specifically as both legs flexing.

At big enough angles, the inside leg is really flexed to create the required vertical separation (i.e. get out of the way) and can't flex anymore - often it even extends a bit to get to 90 degrees when flat...

Sometimes the 1st thing I release is the upper body at the hips. The legs flex a split second later because I'd rather not pole vault skyward over the old stance leg. But the trigger came from the hips. Same thing as above wrt the fundamental body position.

@razie, that hip 1st release is a TG suggestion (or at least where I heard it 1st) in the merry-go-round vid you noted.

That would be closer to what's called a "COM release" - which creates a typical A-frame as the skis are still engaged and release later... it's more common in large turns as it slows down the legs, although Tom goes even beyond that sometimes I believe and sometimes talks about extra angulation to get the body going - it all depends on the turn timing, where you are and what you want to do next and how much energy you're willing to spend... they're all variants of the same movement pattern - where you flex the leg to allow the body to flow into the next turn instead of "up" - the variations are in regards to the the timing of different components

 

[Noodler]

Stating again that there are some higher performance extension releases seen in WC racing (Brignone, Odermatt, etc.), however, the main reason why we debate the pros/cons of these release types is that most recreational skiers use an extension release (push off) in order to "free" the skis from the snow in order to twist/pivot them into the new turn. This is why I strongly feel that most skiers who aren't racing would do well to learn and understand how a flex-based release will provide them with more control and higher performance turns via increased early edge angles. Flexion based releases do a much better job of managing pressure and keeping our skis on the snow and edging for a longer duration. When your skis are off the snow you are giving up some control; it can be fun to do so, but there can be consequences as is often seen in WC races.

I just feel like in this "religious war" over releases, we sometimes lose sight of why we're even discussing this stuff. I post about using flex to release because I know what it did for my skiing ability and I have a natural desire to help others achieve the best they can be too.

 

[Chris V.]

Sometimes the 1st thing I release is the upper body at the hips.

How do you do that without doing anything with your feet and legs?

 

[geepers]

How do you do that without doing anything with your feet and legs?

Note I wrote " legs flex a split second later" so it's not like the legs are rigidly fixed. But the release happens at the hip 1st. The torso heads that way, the skis remain on course for a fraction of a second longer before they go a slightly different way. Yippee, energy free extension into the new turn with plenty of angle.

If you want the details watch the "Flex To Release" vid on BigPitctureSkiing.com - free 3 day binge-athon available right now.

The second way is try for yourself on the hill. If that's not convenient try with a big stretchy band at home. Incline, angulate, try various release points from ankle, knee, hip.

 

[Jamt]

Stating again that there are some higher performance extension releases seen in WC racing (Brignone, Odermatt, etc.), however, the main reason why we debate the pros/cons of these release types is that most recreational skiers use an extension release (push off) in order to "free" the skis from the snow in order to twist/pivot them into the new turn. This is why I strongly feel that most skiers who aren't racing would do well to learn and understand how a flex-based release will provide them with more control and higher performance turns via increased early edge angles. Flexion based releases do a much better job of managing pressure and keeping our skis on the snow and edging for a longer duration. When your skis are off the snow you are giving up some control; it can be fun to do so, but there can be consequences as is often seen in WC races.

I just feel like in this "religious war" over releases, we sometimes lose sight of why we're even discussing this stuff. I post about using flex to release because I know what it did for my skiing ability and I have a natural desire to help others achieve the best they can be too.

I agree with all that you say here. However, I also believe that someone who always uses a flex to release would have a lot to gain from learning a taller transition. I don't want to call that extension release though, because it is not the "push off" you are referring to, it is more toppling/balance based.
Whenever I see a person doing flexed releases and keeping their CoM at a constant height I always think that they are really stuck in one type of turn mindset.
For me it is more about appropriate edge angles and appropriate amount of CoM up and down movements. It can be really fun to have a tall transition and then drop your CoM into high edge angles in the next turn. This is also what I see Odermatt is doing, I don't care how he releases the turn. He is certainly not pushing off.

 

[Chris V.]

Note I wrote " legs flex a split second later" so it's not like the legs are rigidly fixed. But the release happens at the hip 1st. The torso heads that way, the skis remain on course for a fraction of a second longer before they go a slightly different way. Yippee, energy free extension into the new turn with plenty of angle.

I like the concept of an energy free extension, or using the force, or whatever one might like to call it, and practice and try to embrace it all I can. Yes, central to the concept is letting the skis "remain on course" or continue to carve into the hill for a short time after the body is no longer restrained, and has started travel down the hill away from the skis (crossover or crossunder, again whatever one might like to call it). Just because edge angles have started decreasing doesn't mean that the skis have to stop carving, that the old turn has to end right away. They can remain engaged in the snow, albeit less strongly, and should be able to continue in the old turn until they reach flat.

But none of this answers the question of what leads to the hips releasing. I do think some action of the feet and legs is necessary--and not a split second later. I work on triggering it by starting to relax the old outside leg.

 

[Steve]

This is from the late 90's and is a fairly low resolution version, but what Lito doing to me is a flex to release. It's happening from the start of the video, but he starts to talk about it around 10:00 in. It is not both legs flexing, it is just lifting the old outside ski (and tipping it - phantom edging.)

 

[Jamt]

But none of this answers the question of what leads to the hips releasing. I do think some action of the feet and legs is necessary--and not a split second later. I work on triggering it by starting to relax the old outside leg.

I might be wrong, but I think geepers is talking about using hip movements, e.g. increasing hip angulation, to drive the transition and later release by flexing of the leg(s). This is not the same as releasing the hip.

I do agree with you though, the release is usually initiated before any major hip movements

 

[Scruffy]

Stating again that there are some higher performance extension releases seen in WC racing (Brignone, Odermatt, etc.), however, the main reason why we debate the pros/cons of these release types is that most recreational skiers use an extension release (push off) in order to "free" the skis from the snow in order to twist/pivot them into the new turn. This is why I strongly feel that most skiers who aren't racing would do well to learn and understand how a flex-based release will provide them with more control and higher performance turns via increased early edge angles. Flexion based releases do a much better job of managing pressure and keeping our skis on the snow and edging for a longer duration. When your skis are off the snow you are giving up some control; it can be fun to do so, but there can be consequences as is often seen in WC races.

I just feel like in this "religious war" over releases, we sometimes lose sight of why we're even discussing this stuff. I post about using flex to release because I know what it did for my skiing ability and I have a natural desire to help others achieve the best they can be too.

Good post, but why malign a turn initiation because some beginner recreational skiers are not performing it correctly? With an extension release there is no need to get air between skis and snow, nor push, nor get so tall that you're flopping over like a metronome. When properly done you can actually keep yours skis very connected to the snow to start carving the new turn early while skis are still pointing in the old turn direction and COM continues it's path down the fall line.

Both releases have value. Teach both, practice both, blend both = better, well rounded skier.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Stating again that there are some higher performance extension releases seen in WC racing (Brignone, Odermatt, etc.), however, the main reason why we debate the pros/cons of these release types is that most recreational skiers use an extension release (push off) in order to "free" the skis from the snow in order to twist/pivot them into the new turn. This is why I strongly feel that most skiers who aren't racing would do well to learn and understand how a flex-based release will provide them with more control and higher performance turns via increased early edge angles. Flexion based releases do a much better job of managing pressure and keeping our skis on the snow and edging for a longer duration. When your skis are off the snow you are giving up some control; it can be fun to do so, but there can be consequences as is often seen in WC races.

I just feel like in this "religious war" over releases, we sometimes lose sight of why we're even discussing this stuff. I post about using flex to release because I know what it did for my skiing ability and I have a natural desire to help others achieve the best they can be too.

In my experience, most skiers just don't have a release at all. Most of them have never even thought of releasing and they might not even want to. Wether it is flex to release or extend any release would be better than what they started with.

 

[Mike King]

I might be wrong, but I think geepers is talking about using hip movements, e.g. increasing hip angulation, to drive the transition and later release by flexing of the leg(s). This is not the same as releasing the hip.

I do agree with you though, the release is usually initiated before any major hip movements

What I am attempting to do in my skiing is to release the upper body from the arc of the turn before the lower body. To do so, I'm projecting my rib cage diagonally across the skis. If you watch this video, you'll see Schiffrin, Hirscher, and Kristofferson using the same move -- the upper body moves slightly before the lower body.


This can feel like it is a release from the hip, but in my case, I'm trying to lead with the upper body to allow the upper body to move into the new turn and, in effect, drag the lower body into the turn. When coupled with a flex to release the lower body, it results in a very quick transition to the new edges.

 

[Steve]

In my experience, most skiers just don't have a release at all. Most of them have never even thought of releasing and they might not even want to. Wether it is flex to release or extend any release would be better than what they started with.

As an intermediate I had to focus really hard on releasing, to the point that for an entire season my mantra was "let it go man!" I'd hold on to the turn, brace against the equipment, than have to make a gross pivot move to initiate a new turn. This was after a long focus on "get over it man!" meaning get over my outside ski. All of that focus on balancing on the outside ski made it even harder to release.

Eventually I learned to release. The TG focus on a backside heavy release has been a very effective addition to my movement pattern.. The next problem I developed was not getting forward after the release. That's my focus right now. I think my primary release movement is flexion based now.

What about a tipping release though? Many instructors focus on tipping the old outside ski downhill as the release movement. Flatten it, get off the edge.

As @Erik Timmerman says, however it's done, the developing skier needs to learn to transfer their weight from the old outside ski to the new outside ski.

 

[razie]

Note I wrote " legs flex a split second later" so it's not like the legs are rigidly fixed. But the release happens at the hip 1st. The torso heads that way, the skis remain on course for a fraction of a second longer before they go a slightly different way. Yippee, energy free extension into the new turn with plenty of angle.

It's just the relative timing between the two, it doesn't really change the turn that much, at recreational speeds. I believe it was used as a cue/drill for those that are afraid of toppling or not topple fast enough, rather than as "the only way"... so, while good to practice and focus on, when you get to hip to snow, the relative timing of movements will become just tactics to choose from, in this turn or that turn. There are subtle differences between all these variants, advantages and disadvantages depending on snow, terrain, performance, timing of the apex etc

 

[Mike King]

What about a tipping release though? Many instructors focus on tipping the old outside ski downhill as the release movement. Flatten it, get off the edge.

As @Erik Timmerman says, however it's done, the developing skier needs to learn to transfer their weight from the old outside ski to the new outside ski.

@Steve, I do think we want to ski from outside ski to outside ski. It seems to me though that this debate is about what the body mechanics are to move the center of mass from inside one turn to inside the next. One way to do so is to transfer the weight, but if there is insufficient angulation in the body, then the transfer of weight from outside ski to inside ski will result in a pretty slow movement of the CoM into the new turn. And the speed will be even slower if the CoM is more inclined at the time of that transfer.

It seems to me that the release mechanism has to be more complex than simply inside leg extension or flex to release. Both of them involve the upper body as well. We may say "ski from the snow up," in reality there's a lot of from the top down in skiing and especially in good and great skiing. So maybe this whole thread is missing that important part -- what's going on in the upper body...

 

[Steve]

@Mike King 110% agree with you. It was Gellie that first got me to think about using the entire body, not just the feet to ski, and it has completely transformed my skiing this season. Lots of refinement needed, but my balance and feeling of confidence and control is an order of magnitude greater once I started incorporating upper body weight shifts. So much easier than hoping that feet and leg movements would move the weight all by themselves.

 

[Jamt]

What I am attempting to do in my skiing is to release the upper body from the arc of the turn before the lower body. To do so, I'm projecting my rib cage diagonally across the skis. If you watch this video, you'll see Schiffrin, Hirscher, and Kristofferson using the same move -- the upper body moves slightly before the lower body.


This can feel like it is a release from the hip, but in my case, I'm trying to lead with the upper body to allow the upper body to move into the new turn and, in effect, drag the lower body into the turn. When coupled with a flex to release the lower body, it results in a very quick transition to the new edges.

Absolutely, but if we look at the forces and accelerations involved in a typical sl turn the up force is about twice your weight already at the apex (at or slightly after the gate usually), so you don't need to increase the toppling by increasing the angulation. The angulation is largest later when the forces have already reduced (by e.g. releasing in some way) and you lead towards the next turn.
Also, when the total snow reaction force is in the order of 3g, it is kind of difficult to increase the angulation.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Sometimes the 1st thing I release is the upper body at the hips. The legs flex a split second later because I'd rather not pole vault skyward over the old stance leg. But the trigger came from the hips. Same thing as above wrt the fundamental body position.

@razie, that hip 1st release is a TG suggestion (or at least where I heard it 1st) in the merry-go-round vid you noted.....

Like this?
I think of this image as Ted releasing at the shoulders, not the hips.
His spine is definitely curved above the pelvis.
Got a pic of someone releasing at the hips first?

 

[LiquidFeet]

....the main reason why we debate the pros/cons of these release types is that most recreational skiers use an extension release (push off) in order to "free" the skis from the snow in order to twist/pivot them into the new turn. ....I post about using flex to release because I know what it did for my skiing ability and I have a natural desire to help others achieve the best they can be too.

^^This. Learning to flex the new inside leg to release that old turn does amazing things for the pivoting, leaning-in, backseat, push-to-edge, bracing skier. It opens up the whole world of advanced skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....letting the skis "remain on course" or continue to carve into the hill for a short time after the body is no longer restrained, and has started travel down the hill away from the skis.... Just because edge angles have started decreasing doesn't mean that the skis have to stop carving, that the old turn has to end right away. They can remain engaged in the snow, albeit less strongly, and should be able to continue in the old turn until they reach flat.....

Doing this at the end of the turn, keeping the skis engaged as long as possible after release of the CoM, keeping them engaged on old edges until they flatten and WOW tip onto new edges because, well, they are back uphill behind you ... creates intoxicating sensations. Skier euphoria. And, not well-known, it can be done at a snail's pace as well as at speed.

Hold onto your socks!

 

[LiquidFeet]

....the developing skier needs to learn to transfer their weight from the old outside ski to the new outside ski.

...this debate is about what the body mechanics are to move the center of mass from inside one turn to inside the next....

...Both releases have value. Teach both, practice both, blend both = better, well rounded skier.

...most skiers just don't have a release at all.....

Well, there you have it. Most recreational skiers who have not benefitted from good training are afraid of letting go of the old turn. They do other things to avoid releasing the hold they have on snow for fear of falling. For those of us involved in helping these novice and intermediate skiers, it matters a lot how they are coaxed into "letting go," which they fear so strongly.

I thought it might be valuable to point out there are two different conversations going on in this thread. One is about lower level skiers, the other about higher level skiers. For those of us interested in high level skiing, there are plenty of enhancements to flexion and extension releases that we've been talking about. But what about the typical recreational skier? What's in this thread for them and for their teachers? I want to talk a little about that here.

Extending the new outside leg feels safer in the context of a novice's fear of falling. Extension to start a new turn can be seen as a release, or not. I see it as a release because it transfers the weight to the new outside ski. But it can be seen as an avoidance of a release since the body doesn't "float" across the skis. The body's movement during the extension tends to feel like it's being caused by a push. Extension, whether it's a release or not, gets taught before the flex-to-release because it's easier to teach, and also because many ski instructors have no idea how to flex-to-release themselves.

Extending to release enables the quick pivot, which dooms skiers to the intermediate plateau. Thus the dilemma.

A workable solution is to teach flex-to-release in beginner lessons and in all intermediate lessons, as a better way to start a turn instead of extending the new outside leg. It can be done without asking them to lift the new inside ski's tail, which scares the bejeebers out of these skiers. Just ask them to bend one leg. To start a turn that's all they have to do - bend one leg and not the other. Bend the downhill leg. Bend the new inside leg. They can even be in a wedge if the sensation of security it gives is important to their continued willingness to slide downhill. This works for little kids as well as oldsters starting after 50. Bending the leg doesn't involve telling them to tip the foot inside the boot, but that can certainly be used if the instructor can get the message across. Bending a leg is so easy; everyone knows what that means. Bend the left leg to go left.

The instructor needs to purge any upper body leaning or rotation when it accompanies this new movement, and it probably will almost immediately. Keep the skiers focused on bending one leg while keeping torso upright and uninvolved in the whole business. Keep the torso "quiet" is the usual phrase .
Learning to do the flexion release makes pivoting the skis and leaning in at edge change a bit more difficult. That's a big benefit. Teach the extension release as a second way to start turns to intermediates who have the flexion release going well. It will give these skiers versatility.

In whatever order these two releases are taught, they do need to be taught isolated from each other because the movements are so different. Otherwise, the differences get lost and the skiers resort to the extension, typically with an added pivot, upper body rotation, and leaning-in once the lesson is over and they head to steeper terrain with friends.