Extend vs Flex (taken from video thread)

[geepers]

I like the concept of an energy free extension, or using the force, or whatever one might like to call it, and practice and try to embrace it all I can. Yes, central to the concept is letting the skis "remain on course" or continue to carve into the hill for a short time after the body is no longer restrained, and has started travel down the hill away from the skis (crossover or crossunder, again whatever one might like to call it). Just because edge angles have started decreasing doesn't mean that the skis have to stop carving, that the old turn has to end right away. They can remain engaged in the snow, albeit less strongly, and should be able to continue in the old turn until they reach flat.

But none of this answers the question of what leads to the hips releasing. I do think some action of the feet and legs is necessary--and not a split second later. I work on triggering it by starting to relax the old outside leg.

What I got (and applied) from the TG vid (in my own words so blame me if I have it wrong).

This assumes that the turn is progressing and we have pressure from the outside ski. We already be flexing a little to manage that pressure and we are angulating to balance against the changing forces as we come out of the fall line. Further, when we transition it's going to be a flex of both leg.

The important thing is to get the main mass (the body) completely across the feet. Releasing at the ankles tends to leave the body behind and still on the merry-go-round of the last turn. Releasing just at the knee tends to put us back instead of moving with the ski.

For me releasing at the hip is a timing thing. At that point I have the option to stop angulating further, stay laterally balanced and ride the turn back up the hill, continue to increase angulation and hold the turn until the body topples anyway or get off the merry-go-round now.

Maybe it doesn't hugely matter if it's hip/flex legs or hip and flex legs simultaneously as long as it is done in close sequence. Getting the body across the feet. Give it a go. It's probably easier to use the stretchy band at home - none of the on-snow distractions. It was one of the things I worked on last Oz season. (Also worked plenty on just flexing the outside leg to release.)

BTW pretty sure this is what Takao is talking about in this clip. (4:25 "very small, very small movement.....and from hip joint, not subtalar joint") (IMHO this is different from his discussion elsewhere about the hip coming around until the fall line.)

 

[geepers]

At big enough angles, the inside leg is really flexed to create the required vertical separation (i.e. get out of the way) and can't flex anymore - often it even extends a bit to get to 90 degrees when flat...

In the unlikely event I ever get to your sort of angles I'll come have a chat!

That would be closer to what's called a "COM release" - which creates a typical A-frame as the skis are still engaged and release later... it's more common in large turns as it slows down the legs, although Tom goes even beyond that sometimes I believe and sometimes talks about extra angulation to get the body going - it all depends on the turn timing, where you are and what you want to do next and how much energy you're willing to spend... they're all variants of the same movement pattern - where you flex the leg to allow the body to flow into the next turn instead of "up" - the variations are in regards to the the timing of different components

Having a hard time picturing how this creates an a-frame. It's a tiny movement and in any event it's a split second.

Tom's not the only one re increasing angulation late in the turn. New CSIA discusses balancing in favor of "centrifugal" forces to topple out of the turn.

I just feel like in this "religious war" over releases,

Well stop approaching it like a war, religious or otherwise. Better if it's a discussion on points of technique for understanding and not a proselytizing session.

Sometimes I read something that is contrary to my understanding/experience so may seek to clarify. Example: it's taken me until this thread to realise that my idea of one legged extension are roughly equivalent to your one legged flex.

most recreational skiers use an extension release (push off) in order to "free" the skis from the snow in order to twist/pivot them into the new turn.

On 1st read I thought this can't be right. JFB devoted an entire segment of Projected Productions (Hinterlux IIRC) to building a platform with the new outside ski which makes it problematic to twist it. But of course you mean an extension of both legs, an up move perpendicular to the pitch, in which case I see where you are coming from. I'm still not sure I agree however now it's around the word "most". Given all the upper body twisters and tippers out there...

 

[geepers]

I might be wrong, but I think geepers is talking about using hip movements, e.g. increasing hip angulation, to drive the transition and later release by flexing of the leg(s). This is not the same as releasing the hip.

I do agree with you though, the release is usually initiated before any major hip movements

Not a major hip movement. Think Takao's vid. Very small.

In my experience, most skiers just don't have a release at all. Most of them have never even thought of releasing and they might not even want to. Wether it is flex to release or extend any release would be better than what they started with.

This.

This can feel like it is a release from the hip, but in my case, I'm trying to lead with the upper body to allow the upper body to move into the new turn and, in effect, drag the lower body into the turn.

The rib cage vids came out well after the end of season. On the list for upcoming season.

Absolutely, but if we look at the forces and accelerations involved in a typical sl turn the up force is about twice your weight already at the apex (at or slightly after the gate usually), so you don't need to increase the toppling by increasing the angulation. The angulation is largest later when the forces have already reduced (by e.g. releasing in some way) and you lead towards the next turn.
Also, when the total snow reaction force is in the order of 3g, it is kind of difficult to increase the angulation.

This makes sense for sl. I'm reflecting on longer turns. The thought of 3G with the upright body that sl skiers exhibit is kind of frightening - pretty sure I'd snap in half.

 

[geepers]

Like this?
I think of this image as Ted releasing at the shoulders, not the hips.
His spine is definitely curved above the pelvis.
Got a pic of someone releasing at the hips first?
View attachment 125570

It's such a small move we'd probably never know without speaking with them.

In Ted's turn I think the action happens slightly earlier. I see the upper body move slightly before his outside leg flexes. Split second. Do you agree?

 

[LiquidFeet]

It's such a small move we'd probably never know without speaking with them.

In Ted's turn I think the action happens slightly earlier. I see the upper body move slightly before his outside leg flexes. Split second. Do you agree?

Oh wow ... how ever did you find this? Yes, it's obvious.
I've been staring at this for a while.
I think the shoulder action bends the spine,
which in turn lifts the new outside hip upward.
It looks like the flexion happens after this.
So, if I'm right, the shoulder tilting causes the hip tilting.

In addition, there's something interesting happening with the new inside foot.
I wish the gif went farther, so we could see if that new inside ski lifts into the air.
The new inside foot definitely moves forward as the new outside shoulder moves backwards.
Can you make that gif keep going a bit longer, @geepers?

 

[Average Joe]

Ted is making a 35m ski carve in a GS course and I think it's from 2014, when the FIS decided it was a good idea for racers to compete on skis designed in the 1970's.

 

[geepers]

Oh wow how did you find this. Yes, it's obvious.
I've been staring at this for a while.
I think the shoulder action bends the spine,
which in turn lifts the new outside hip upward.
It looks like the flexion happens after this.
So, if I'm right, the shoulder tilting causes the hip tilting.

In addition, there's something interesting happening with the new inside foot.
I wish the gif went farther, so we could see if that new inside ski lifts into the air.
The new inside foot definitely moves forward as the new outside shoulder moves backwards.
Can you make that gif keep going a bit longer, @geepers?

There's a great slomo of that turn in this vid. Pause the vid and advance/back-up frame by frame using the dot and comma keys.



My take is that his angulation doesn't change much from somewhere above this frame

to this frame...

Around this frame his elbow has started to rise above the snow although the spine/head seem to be the same shape.

By here that elbow is well off the snow. Can't see much change in spine shape. Outside leg still long.

By this frame torso is well on the way out of the turn. Outside leg - not much change in knee flex.

Now the outside knee is flexing and rising

By this frame outside knee well flexed and upper body is leading across the skis. Working those shoulders and visible change in spine shape.

Anyway, my 2 cents worth...

 

[LiquidFeet]

I've been fascinated by Ted's use of the swimming outside arm. Here it is, with the unmoving head as the frame of reference.

 

[Noodler]

Good post, but why malign a turn initiation because some beginner recreational skiers are not performing it correctly? With an extension release there is no need to get air between skis and snow, nor push, nor get so tall that you're flopping over like a metronome. When properly done you can actually keep yours skis very connected to the snow to start carving the new turn early while skis are still pointing in the old turn direction and COM continues it's path down the fall line.

Both releases have value. Teach both, practice both, blend both = better, well rounded skier.

The primary reason a flexion based release has a huge advantage over an extension based release is because you cannot tip to higher edge angles early in the turn if your legs are already extended. Try tipping your skis with your legs extended versus flexed. You should note that you can tip the skis over much farther when your knees are bent. My goal is to achieve earlier and higher edge angles before the apex of the turn. If I'm extended at transition (standing tall) then I have very little time to get flexed and tipped before I've already hit the turn apex. This is why a very typical pattern seen with extension release turns is a very late "hit" and grinding at the bottom of the turn. I like to already start my release just after the the turn apex and have established the BoS transfer to the uphill ski coming into the transition. Once again this is to facilitate getting early high angles in the next turn. Of course, my goals for a ski turn, may not be your goals.

 

[Noodler]

What I am attempting to do in my skiing is to release the upper body from the arc of the turn before the lower body. To do so, I'm projecting my rib cage diagonally across the skis. If you watch this video, you'll see Schiffrin, Hirscher, and Kristofferson using the same move -- the upper body moves slightly before the lower body.


This can feel like it is a release from the hip, but in my case, I'm trying to lead with the upper body to allow the upper body to move into the new turn and, in effect, drag the lower body into the turn. When coupled with a flex to release the lower body, it results in a very quick transition to the new edges.

I've come to the conclusion that rib cage projection is just another way of expressing CA/CB upper body movements.

 

[Noodler]

As an intermediate I had to focus really hard on releasing, to the point that for an entire season my mantra was "let it go man!" I'd hold on to the turn, brace against the equipment, than have to make a gross pivot move to initiate a new turn. This was after a long focus on "get over it man!" meaning get over my outside ski. All of that focus on balancing on the outside ski made it even harder to release.

Eventually I learned to release. The TG focus on a backside heavy release has been a very effective addition to my movement pattern.. The next problem I developed was not getting forward after the release. That's my focus right now. I think my primary release movement is flexion based now.

What about a tipping release though? Many instructors focus on tipping the old outside ski downhill as the release movement. Flatten it, get off the edge.

As @Erik Timmerman says, however it's done, the developing skier needs to learn to transfer their weight from the old outside ski to the new outside ski.

You are most likely describing a weighted release. As I mentioned in a previous post, there are multiple flexion-based releases. I've mostly been describing one-footed flexion releases in my posts.

 

[Average Joe]

The primary reason a flexion based release has a huge advantage over an extension based release is because you cannot tip to higher edge angles early in the turn if your legs are already extended.

Bingo.
One of the biggest, if not THE biggest, constraints on development in the U-16/19 racers i coach are upwards movements in transition, ingrained from a young age.
Shaped skis have been with us for 25 years yet older coaches, parents, and instructors pass down their pre-shaped techniques to their athletes and kids, and in their early years the consequences are marginal.
But when they reach the upper age groups, these movement patterns make it very difficult to keep pace with those who have developed the faster and smoother flexion transitions.
When I watch my athletes in a turn, I pay close attention to their starting edge angle, because in an extension transition, that's going to be your maximum angle. If you land and engage at 25,35,40 degrees, that's it. From there, it's muscle, skill, and and athleticism that make or break the turn. And your skeletal alignment at apex is compact, which increases the muscle tension and thus fatigue.
A racer with a flexion transition is longer legged, better "stacked" at apex, quicker through transition, and able to increase edge angles throughout the "high c" section of the turn. These high angles require less pressure than lower angles and result in a more efficient carved turn.
This more relaxed technique requires less muscle, saving energy and allowing better balance.

Sasha Rearick call it a performance transition, and while he sees, on the World Cup, multiple transitions, this is the default preferred and quickest. Of course on the steep pitches in Solden, or Cortina we see all types employed, but in racing it's about the clock.

If we have coaches and teachers perpetuating older less efficient techniques, we will have younger skiers with outdated movement patterns. It's a shame when some skiers hit the development wall and struggle.

This is not to say a flexion transition is the only way to ski, but it is certainly the most efficient.

 

[Jamt]

Bingo.
One of the biggest, if not THE biggest, constraints on development in the U-16/19 racers i coach are upwards movements in transition, ingrained from a young age.
Shaped skis have been with us for 25 years yet older coaches, parents, and instructors pass down their pre-shaped techniques to their athletes and kids, and in their early years the consequences are marginal.
But when they reach the upper age groups, these movement patterns make it very difficult to keep pace with those who have developed the faster and smoother flexion transitions.
When I watch my athletes in a turn, I pay close attention to their starting edge angle, because in an extension transition, that's going to be your maximum angle. If you land and engage at 25,35,40 degrees, that's it. From there, it's muscle, skill, and and athleticism that make or break the turn. And your skeletal alignment at apex is compact, which increases the muscle tension and thus fatigue.
A racer with a flexion transition is longer legged, better "stacked" at apex, quicker through transition, and able to increase edge angles throughout the "high c" section of the turn. These high angles require less pressure than lower angles and result in a more efficient carved turn.
This more relaxed technique requires less muscle, saving energy and allowing better balance.

Sasha Rearick call it a performance transition, and while he sees, on the World Cup, multiple transitions, this is the default preferred and quickest. Of course on the steep pitches in Solden, or Cortina we see all types employed, but in racing it's about the clock.

If we have coaches and teachers perpetuating older less efficient techniques, we will have younger skiers with outdated movement patterns. It's a shame when some skiers hit the development wall and struggle.

This is not to say a flexion transition is the only way to ski, but it is certainly the most efficient.

Interesting. I have coached about 200 U16s, and I can only recall one single athlete who came with an ingrained up move. She made a huge improvement when she got it.
If that is common something must really be wrong in the younger years coaching.

I view the flexed transition as necessary much of the time simply because there is no way you can go from a high edge angle, to tall, to high edge angle again in 0.8-1 seconds in SL. In GS you have some more options and there we also see more diversity on the top level.

Edit:
About high edge angles. Most of it comes from inclination so I don't really buy the tipping-> edge angles as the primary reason for flexed transitions. The inclination comes from dropping the CoM, so if you are flexed you don't have to drop it as much. That is the primary...
Properly timed angulation/tipping gives you more inclination. Bad timing gives you less.

 

[Scruffy]

Try tipping your skis with your legs extended versus flexed. You should note that you can tip the skis over much farther when your knees are bent.

Yes of course, that's very basic biomechanics. I think we're all well beyond understanding that.

My goal is to achieve earlier and higher edge angles before the apex of the turn. If I'm extended at transition (standing tall) then I have very little time to get flexed and tipped before I've already hit the turn apex. This is why a very typical pattern seen with extension release turns is a very late "hit" and grinding at the bottom of the turn. I like to already start my release just after the the turn apex and have established the BoS transfer to the uphill ski coming into the transition. Once again this is to facilitate getting early high angles in the next turn. Of course, my goals for a ski turn, may not be your goals.

I've underlined the issues.
As I mentioned above, you don't need stand tall to accomplish an extension release. You're stuck with some binary vision of an extension release it would seem.

My goal is many different turns whether it's in the race course, or the almost infinite terrain variables one finds in free skiing.

But you do you. Do you race? or are you a sport carver? If you don't need much variability in your turns do it your way, but understand the other side of the coin before preaching against it.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

The primary reason a flexion based release has a huge advantage over an extension based release is because you cannot tip to higher edge angles early in the turn if your legs are already extended. Try tipping your skis with your legs extended versus flexed.

Higher than what though? Why do I want high-edge angles right away? I want enough edge angle right away and I want more later, and I want to have somewhere to go. I'm not saying you are wrong, btw, I just don't think that we need high edges in the high-C, we just need edges. But yes, you totally can tip more when in the flexed position. You also have a lot more freedom to send the skis on a different path than your body, and I see that as a huge reason to be more flexed in transition. The CA/CB is gonna be a lot harder if you aren't flexed at the edge-change.

Interesting. I have coached about 200 U16s, and I can only recall one single athlete who came with an ingrained up move. She made a huge improvement when she got it.
If that is common something must really be wrong in the younger years coaching.

I view the flexed transition as necessary much of the time simply because there is no way you can go from a high edge angle, to tall, to high edge angle again in 0.8-1 seconds in SL. In GS you have some more options and there we also see more diversity on the top level.

Edit:
About high edge angles. Most of it comes from inclination so I don't really buy the tipping-> edge angles as the primary reason for flexed transitions. The inclination comes from dropping the CoM, so if you are flexed you don't have to drop it as much. That is the primary...
Properly timed angulation/tipping gives you more inclination. Bad timing gives you less.

I have to say that when I am coaching flex/extend, it's pretty much always flexion. I think the biggest problem is when you have people with these moves that are just deeply ingrained patterns. A pattern that you sometimes see and that is associated with the extension release is one where the skier goes up and is steering a flat ski down and across the fall line and all that is associated with that. The extension isn't the problem, it's the pattern and linkage of the movements that is the problem. If you can't flatten your skis without twisting them, that is a problem. If you can't straighten your legs without pushing them away, that is a problem. I love teaching these people, such fertile ground for making a big change.

 

[geepers]

I've come to the conclusion that rib cage projection is just another way of expressing CA/CB upper body movements.

So you are saying that with CA/CB you don't tip the feet first to enter the new turn? That the rib cage moving parallel to the pitch leads the way and drags everything after it?

This is puzzling.

 

[Average Joe]

Interesting. I have coached about 200 U16s, and I can only recall one single athlete who came with an ingrained up move. She made a huge improvement when she got it.
If that is common something must really be wrong in the younger years coaching.

I view the flexed transition as necessary much of the time simply because there is no way you can go from a high edge angle, to tall, to high edge angle again in 0.8-1 seconds in SL. In GS you have some more options and there we also see more diversity on the top level.

Edit:
About high edge angles. Most of it comes from inclination so I don't really buy the tipping-> edge angles as the primary reason for flexed transitions. The inclination comes from dropping the CoM, so if you are flexed you don't have to drop it as much. That is the primary...
Properly timed angulation/tipping gives you more inclination. Bad timing gives you less.

To be clear, I wrote that that it was the biggest constraint on development, not the biggest problem.
Because excessive upper body movement, whether it's upwards , or twisting, or a combination, is the hardest ingrained movement pattern to undo. It's not 99 out of 100 problem, but in 99 out of a 100 it's the biggest challenge.
It is true that high edge angles start with big inclination. And the most efficient way to getting to Ted, Marcel, or Mikaela edge angles is to move with the lowest energy transition (edit:, well, maybe not Ted.
The "top level" employs all types of transitions, depending on course sets, pitch, and conditions. In Solden, a stivot on the pitch does not utilize the same transition as one in the final section, as an example.
Redirects employ different movements than arc to arcs.

 

[razie]

Interesting. I have coached about 200 U16s, and I can only recall one single athlete who came with an ingrained up move. She made a huge improvement when she got it.
If that is common something must really be wrong in the younger years coaching.

That's because European coaches, while mostly not caring to categorize it as flexion, from what I see, mostly teach good skiing, as evidenced by the presence on the world Cup - that's what I was getting at earlier, while here, "up, forward and pivot" is the main coaching method, with the obvious results. I have tens of hours of video of hundreds of athletes of all ages... and there's tons across YouTube, to prove it... and it creates a focus on pushing and skiing with the upper body and a complete lack of understanding of what the lower body is for...

Hence these interminable arguments that we still having here - You'be been witness to the lack of understanding here first hand for a long time now... and probably grinning all the time at the lack of competition this creates. In over a decade I have not seen a single coach training flexion, at any age group, up to and including FIS. Some of the better coaches allow it to appear when the athlete starts figuring it out on their own, but none coach it. Most will get athletes to stand up when they see them low - because they associate that with "being back" - and most will get them to rotate when they see them countering because they associate that with hippy.

Thus, 3 of 6 or 7 relevant movement categories are not actively coached and in many cases actively discouraged, so North American athletes grow up with both hands tied behind their backs! This is first hand experience, not from the peanut gallery... and the damage this does at the lower ages is incalculable

 

[Noodler]

Yes of course, that's very basic biomechanics. I think we're all well beyond understanding that.

I've underlined the issues.
As I mentioned above, you don't need stand tall to accomplish an extension release. You're stuck with some binary vision of an extension release it would seem.

My goal is many different turns whether it's in the race course, or the almost infinite terrain variables one finds in free skiing.

But you do you. Do you race? or are you a sport carver? If you don't need much variability in your turns do it your way, but understand the other side of the coin before preaching against it.

Other side of the coin? Seriously? I guess I won't hold it against if you haven't read every single one of my posts, but I spent multiple seasons learning flex based releases to lose the up move in my skiing. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who started to ski by learning a flexion based release and never had an up move. Almost all recreational skiers default to using extension to release their skis.

I'm interested in seeing this "low extension release". Got video?

And if you want to keep on using extension releases then that's fine, but understand the limitations it creates to achieve higher performance skiing.

 

[Loki1]

And if you want to keep on using extension releases then that's fine, but understand the limitations it creates to achieve higher performance skiing.

The same can be said about so called "flex to release". I have found that the most ardent promoters of flex to release seldom understand, or recognize the disadvantages of what that particular technique, only promoting the "extreme" benefits. They also over inflate the disadvantages and don't recognize the advantages of so called"extension to release".