Extend vs Flex (taken from video thread)

[Rod9301]

The same can be said about so called "flex to release". I have found that the most ardent promoters of flex to release seldom understand, or recognize the disadvantages of what that particular technique, only promoting the "extreme" benefits. They also over inflate the disadvantages and don't recognize the advantages of so called"extension to release".

Which are?

 

[Noodler]

The same can be said about so called "flex to release". I have found that the most ardent promoters of flex to release seldom understand, or recognize the disadvantages of what that particular technique, only promoting the "extreme" benefits. They also over inflate the disadvantages and don't recognize the advantages of so called"extension to release".

Please fill us in. What are the disadvantages of a flex to release turn type?

 

[razie]

To be fair, he's been unusually mild in this thread, by Loki standards, so I find myself unusually conflicted at this point, as I almost gave loki1 a "like" - probably the first - if he had stopped his post half-way through. There is some exaggeration, he's correct on that point...

One problem that I have is simply categorizing what is "extension to release"? Although we all know what we're probably talking about, often, the leg is long and stays long - so there is no real "extension", not in any real use of that word. So unadvised people would have an issue understanding what we're talking about. Here's where I think Jamt is 100% correct: what matters is if you release with a push. And you can push into the leg, or the hips or whatever you want to push.... However, that leaves open the door for "the juicing". The clearest example so far was jimtransition's runs he posted last. That's a serious juicing of the energy from the turn, followed by a flex.

Especially as a race coach, I cannot can't say anything negative on that (great skiing, btw). And no, loki1, you can't use that as a sign of weakness just correctness. There is a very fine line where "resisting" becomes "pushing" and "pusing" becomes the rlease mechanism, but honestly, few would be able to see that line. If you ask "flexxers" they saw the flex. If you ask the "pushers" they saw the push... well, which is it?

Like Paul likes to say - if you go for "max fun" a little bit of pushing is ok, who really cares. The part I always take issue with is "well, do you own flexing?". If you do, I honestly don't care what you do in this turn or that turn, unless your target is technical perfection.

Caston totally owns it, so I'm shocked and absorbedly watch whatever he cares to put out, whether he's hopping 3m in the air off a bump, or his digging in with an a$$-to-ski air switch at 1000% coiling. He's like a mini-god either way, although if you told him I said that, I'll deny it!

But, to get pedantic, I say that's still a flexed release, because the flex is what allowed the final release. He did not push himself "up" but "across" and that's the difference between "hopping" and "releasing".

ILE - there is no such thing, if you ask me. Nobody takes 2g on the deeply bent inside leg, to push themselves up and tall, as a matter of fact, so that's not a thing. Period. And at lower edge angles, I don't really care to split the possibilities 8 ways.

The big elephant in the room when we talk release, is always the stance leg, the outside leg, the one that's engaged. You could potentially extend the inside before flexing the outside and end up in an ILE situation, but that's very extreme and uncommon... the Ted release - someone put one just above, he's deeply flexed in transition, so I categorize that as a flexed release, but "the early" kind or "super" some may call it, where you retract before flipping burgers... err edges. Like I said, he did in no way push himself upright on the inside leg, so that's nothing like an ILE pattern.

And the even bigger elephant in the room, as not just me but a few of us already brought up, is "can you actually flex and release"? Well, do you own it? And not for show, in one turn, but an entire run, with turn shape and speed control, all the way to the bottom? Be it blue run, black run. I'll show you it on a triple black if you need the encouragement/proof. Anyone that shows me that, has instant 100% respect and I will not comment on their releases, sempre. Unless they're up for some improvement through negativity and tough love . If you can't, then you obviously lack like 80% of all possible releases, so it's merely "sour grapes" and that's a "you can't actually ski problem".

As for "benefits" of extension and hopping? I can think of one, outside of some tactical situations like jumping over noobs that cut you off in bumps (yeah @Noodler I remember seeing "the UFO" that day) : flappers.

p.s. @geepers I will disagree with you, somewhat, on the post below. The flexed release doesn't tire you out - I ski that way all day long. What does tire you out is a) when learning it and mistiming it and b) the performance it leads to.

This second point, b) is the important one: flexed release normally leads to more performance and energy in the next turn - because of bigger angles earlier - so more "effort" required from the skier, especially if not compensating with other movements. That's not a bad thing - I'm sure most of us would really like "more" from their turns and there are ways to mellow it out in other ways (with less CB, less CA, less etc ).

 

[geepers]

Please fill us in. What are the disadvantages of a flex to release turn type?

Good - thought you'd never ask!

#2 disadvantage - supposedly take years to learn.

#3 disadvantage - other release types cannot then be used. (If you can then you are not a mere mortal.)

#4

#5

#6 Results in lactate build-up - skiing in an extended position (at transition) avoids much of this lactate build-up which conserves energy and power which can keep skier on a better line easier. And having more strength can help skier make less mistakes. (Reilly again)

#7 Doesn't suit everybody's lever lengths

These are different person to person and will be the deciding factor if skier can transition in a more compact position or not. Just like some people can deep squat and some cannot (Reilly again).

#8 Other side-effects .... include:

• loss of speed control
• loss of speed
• being back on the skis
• loss of ski performance

To be fair Effective Skiing lists them as problems for newbies. But, given #2 (take years to learn) who wants slopes full of skiers whizzing around having lost speed control and being backseat.


Now sharp eyed observers will have noticed #1 was missed.

#1 There's a danger (probably small, but who knows...) that it will turn a skier into a flexing fanatic intent on proselytizing what they see as the one true release.

 

[razie]

But it's really important that we circle back to the crux of the issue: what athletes do naturally vs what they need to be taught.

Every good ski racer can extend to release and every good ski racer can punch off a BTE (juice) to release. Very few, if any, ski racers naturally flex to release unless they have been taught.
Same applies to athletes from other sports. All can push off! Skiing is perhaps the only sport where pushing off is actually not the optimal choice (though it may be the necessary choice at times, or the only choice), especially when the snow is hard, the terrain steep and the legs tired etc. The supple outside leg is the first thing to succumb to fatigue where the skier begins to brace against the leg. We’ve all been there. Some ski that way all the time. It can be effective, but the optimal choice would almost always be a flex, if it could be executed... however that isn’t always the practical choice.

Also, the movements the skier comes into the turn with will dictate the choices they have for getting out of the turn.

So that’s something to keep in mind when talking about release choice. It isn’t always a choice...

 

[HardDaysNight]

Well, at least #1 has a small chance of turning out to be true . Others? Not so much.

 

[geepers]

You could potentially extend the inside before flexing the outside and end up in an ILE situation, but that's very extreme and uncommon... the Ted release - someone put one just above, he's deeply flexed in transition, so I categorize that as a flexed release, but "the early" kind or "super" some may call it, where you retract before flipping burgers... err edges. Like I said, he did in no way push himself upright on the inside leg, so that's nothing like an ILE pattern.

The bit about extreme is puzzling. Why extreme? JFB's (and others) Hinterlux skating with the new inside leg drills. Doesn't take a WC skier (or even an L4).

The Ted thing... loops back to getting off the merry-go-round. What happens earlier (with the upper body) blends into the transition - the upper body is going that way even if we don't flex the stance leg. It's a timing / altitude thing. (Want to get off the bus now without meeting low flying aircraft.)

p.s. @geepers I will disagree with you, somewhat, on the post below. The flexed release doesn't tire you out - I ski that way all day long. What does tire you out is a) when learning it and mistiming it and b) the performance it leads to.

Can you let Reilly know?

On the physical demands from increased performance I'm paying attention to Lorenz's article. Much less tiring than squatting 400lbs. Then again I'm not going into compressions at 120kph.

Well, at least #1 has a small chance of turning out to be true . Others? Not so much.

Source for #2.... https://www.skitalk.com/threads/extend-vs-flex-taken-from-video-thread.22599/post-585358

Source for #3... https://www.skitalk.com/threads/wha...hort-radius-non-carved-turn.22665/post-582344

Source for #4 -> #7

Source for #8... http://www.effectiveskiing.com/wiki/carving-blog/Low_in_transition

 

[HardDaysNight]

Skitalk threads and Reilly! ...those are some unimpeachable sources of true knowledge right there.

 

[razie]

The bit about extreme is puzzling. Why extreme? JFB's (and others) Hinterlux skating with the new inside leg drills. Doesn't take a WC skier (or even an L4).

Take another one like you on your shoulders and do one legged squats. That's an ILE at 2g. That's extreme even at 1g. Skating inside ski at 10 degrees - whatever makes you happy Saturdays

The Ted thing... loops back to getting off the merry-go-round. What happens earlier (with the upper body) blends into the transition - the upper body is going that way even if we don't flex the stance leg. It's a timing / altitude thing. (Want to get off the bus now without meeting low flying aircraft.)

Yeah, so he did flex. Otherwise he would fly instead of release into the next turn, which is the point.

Can you let Reilly know?

Reilly seems to be doing fine without my advice . I don't think he said something I contradicted? Some context may be required to connect the dots

 

[geepers]

Take another one like you on your shoulders and do one legged squats. That's an ILE at 2g. That's extreme even at 1g. Skating inside ski at 10 degrees - whatever makes you happy Saturdays

Or I could intentionally bias myself to the outside of the turn (say, by increasing angulation through the last 1/3) and time the old inside leg extension with the body moving out. Why lift 2G on a flexed inside leg when something else will do most of the work?




10 degrees - yeah, in the drill. And then we apply it to the skiing at whatever angles we make.


Reason for that list of disadvantages has to do with the over-hyping of the difficulty of performing flex to release. Also on Effective Skiing web site are stages of learning - such as Initiation / Acquisition / Consolidation/ Refinement / Creative Variation. Name one other thing in high performance skiing that people get to own (i.e. refinement level or above) without focus and effort.

 

[Loki1]

To be fair, he's been unusually mild in this thread, by Loki standards, so I find myself unusually conflicted at this point, as I almost gave loki1 a "like" - probably the first - if he had stopped his post half-way through. There is some exaggeration, he's correct on that point...

Well Razie, I try. I am only looking for your expert approval of anything I post. I also really appreciate you sharing your extensive knowledge with us lowly scrubs. It must be hard to be the only one in the world with such an extreme grasp of skiing. How is coaching all those winners on the World Cup. I can't imagine the immense success you are having!

Your posts prove my point. Endless rambling with no real logical point. Just, "I'm right you're wrong." Actually, "I'm right, everyone else is wrong!" I think I'll trust those with a bit more experience and actual real world knowledge thanks.

Yes please, lets's see some of that skiing of yours on those triple blacks. Show us how we should all be skiing.

 

[Loki1]

2 distinct disadvantages of "flex to release"

1 - Takes more strength. Biomechanically when you are flexed you must use more muscle strength than relying on your skeletal structure to resist pressure as it increases.
2 - It is harder to be balanced for/aft over the ski. When coming through transition flexed deeply with both legs it takes more skill to recenter and use the ski design effectively through the turn.

Both of these are killers for recreational skiers. Most of them lack the strength and the skill to effectively balance and pressure the ski trying to utilize this technique.

2 things you see with most skiers trying to use flexion as their release is that they are always back and they don't pressure the ski until late into the turn.

Rewatch some of the videos posted in the personal video thread and you will see this in those that are trying to use this technique.

 

[Rod9301]

2 distinct disadvantages of "flex to release"

1 - Takes more strength. Biomechanically when you are flexed you must use more muscle strength than relying on your skeletal structure to resist pressure as it increases.
2 - It is harder to be balanced for/aft over the ski. When coming through transition flexed deeply with both legs it takes more skill to recenter and use the ski design effectively through the turn.

Both of these are killers for recreational skiers. Most of them lack the strength and the skill to effectively balance and pressure the ski trying to utilize this technique.

2 things you see with most skiers trying to use flexion as their release is that they are always back and they don't pressure the ski until late into the turn.

Rewatch some of the videos posted in the personal video thread and you will see this in those that are trying to use this technique.

You should try the flex to release instead of just guessing.

There's no strength needed when you flex. You're just relaxing the tension.

And if you pull the inside shy back throughout the turn, you're centered at the beginning.

But don't listen to me, i don't use fancy words like biomechanically.

 

[François Pugh]

Some of this arguing is just getting silly.

You don't have to lift X times your weight on one leg to do the extension release in a turn. You are already balanced on the edge of the other ski, you just need to give yourself a little nudge and gravity pulls you across since you are no longer balanced.

You don't have to support X times your weight on a bent leg to do the retraction release. The idea is to release the force, not hold on to it.

 

[Noodler]

2 distinct disadvantages of "flex to release"

1 - Takes more strength. Biomechanically when you are flexed you must use more muscle strength than relying on your skeletal structure to resist pressure as it increases.
2 - It is harder to be balanced for/aft over the ski. When coming through transition flexed deeply with both legs it takes more skill to recenter and use the ski design effectively through the turn.

Both of these are killers for recreational skiers. Most of them lack the strength and the skill to effectively balance and pressure the ski trying to utilize this technique.

2 things you see with most skiers trying to use flexion as their release is that they are always back and they don't pressure the ski until late into the turn.

Rewatch some of the videos posted in the personal video thread and you will see this in those that are trying to use this technique.

Your post shows a clear lack of understanding of how flex based releases work. At the time the skier is at maximum flexion there is little to no pressure on the skis. That's what the flexing accomplishes, so it doesn't take more strength to be in a flexed position if you're not dealing with high forces/pressure. When the skier is in the flexed position in transition, because there is little to no pressure, there is NO consequence of the skier's body position being "aft". Every WC skier you watch that has a compact flexed position at transition is seen as "aft" when viewed from the side. What matters for fore/aft management is where they are at the turn apex. At that point you'll see the heel of the stance leg pulled behind the hip.

 

[geepers]

gravity pulls you across

Well, I'd suggest that inertia plays a big role when you are still inside the old turn. (As you've pointed out numerous times gravity is always down, not across.) Once past vertical gravity helps.

 

[razie]

@geepers - flexing to release is the very embodiment of using the force... whatever else you do around it matters much less. You could "help" your upper body get a "head start", but you don't really have to. Just get other body parts out of the way and it will move!

2 distinct disadvantages of "flex to release"

1 - Takes more strength. Biomechanically when you are flexed you must use more muscle strength than relying on your skeletal structure to resist pressure as it increases.

...and there it is. The flabbergasting lack of understanding at the higher levels of coaching, that I was just going on about...

It's sad, really, but the comical aspect of this is that someone could take issue, year after year, right here in front of us, with the notion that someone can flex in order to release, unweighting and releasing while flexing, and, in the same breath, explain how flexing is hard because you're more weighted while doing it... right after several pros here explained the simple logic behind "giving into the mountain"...

I had this long post in mind, exposing this lack of understanding at the upper echelons of coaching up here but, realistically, if, let's say an ex-higher level USSA coach had such a poor understanding of basic physics and - what's the word - biomechanics... other than finding the once in a lifetime phenom that was trained outside of the system (you know, like Bode or Mikaela) you'd probably end up giving up on SL WC racing altogether... Oh, wait! ...the irony of the situation is movie-worthy... at this point, some BeerFlix comedy/drama series is likely the only good thing that's going to come out of pursuing this thread...

 

[François Pugh]

Well, I'd suggest that inertia plays a big role when you are still inside the old turn. (As you've pointed out numerous times gravity is always down, not across.) Once past vertical gravity helps.

Correct.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Humans will believe what's convenient to believe, what suits them, what they want to believe, what makes them feel good, what they've always believed and what's worked for them. They do this even when evidence to the contrary is presented clearly, right in front of them.

Facts, logic, and reason don't dislodge firmly held beliefs - for many people. Their identity is tied to their beliefs, and changing beliefs means betraying who they are.

Recent history testifies to how many people are capable of affirming an alternate reality not supported by facts. Why should skiers be any different?

 

[geepers]

1 - Takes more strength. Biomechanically when you are flexed you must use more muscle strength than relying on your skeletal structure to resist pressure as it increases.
2 - It is harder to be balanced for/aft over the ski. When coming through transition flexed deeply with both legs it takes more skill to recenter and use the ski design effectively through the turn.

Loki,
1. Don't think that's quite right. When both legs flex to release they have light (or no contact) with the snow and therefore there's little GRF to resist.
2. The 2nd is a question of sending the upper body and feet on the right paths. As the body extends and the skis re-engage on their edges they will ( ) come back under and the skier will be balanced.

Both are a matter of timing.

IMO the difficulty of achieving this for a relatively proficient skier is being over-hyped by some. Which is strange as they are the chief sales guys for this technique.

OTOH looking at my low intermediate level Aussie ski buddies who ski maybe a week or two per season. Yep, there's going to be issues.

flexing to release is the very embodiment of using the force... whatever else you do around it matters much less. You could "help" your upper body get a "head start", but you don't really have to. Just get other body parts out of the way and it will move!

Yeah, we have a small disagreement on this part and I think I have it figured.

It very much depends on what the body is doing when we remove the BoS. Elsewhere I posted Axel taking a jump in turn. The BoS is gone as both skis are feet from the snow but he doesn't topple - he's laterally balanced at the the time he jumps.

Now remember the Paul Lorenz article - basically use inclination to balance the bulk of the centripetal forces and only angulate enough for grip and fine tuning lateral balance. Tom Gellie says the same. The result is much less muscular effort in the turn. But we can't stay there forever (not least the trees are getting closer) so we eventually have increased angulation enough to bias in favor of "centrifugal" and the body begins moving out of the turn. If we flex before that point all we'll do is get shorter.

OTOH SL skiers use a much more upright body and are in/out of the turn. Probably unconscious competence. So their bodies are already moving out at release. Same for skiers who prefer Diagram 3 skiing (as per Lorenz article) - they are also already balanced to the outside and using muscular effort to resist toppling outward. And again release of the BoS will cause a topple. (Heck nose - I've spent enough seasons straining against those forces in Diagram 3....)

Anyway my best guess...