Finally grew the PNW quiver – which one to take touring?

[Lebowski]

Just orderd a pair of closeout 189 QST 106’s to complement my formerly-quiver-of-one 193 Ripstick 116’s - that’s right, my quiver has grown a mighty twofold!

My plan is to mount the QST’s with alpine bindings (Strive 14’s most likely) to be my in-bounds, everyday Whistler ski. (40-50 days/year)

I was thinking I'd then replace the Attack 13 bindings on the Ripsticks with some Duke PT 12’s, and those would become my 80/20, deeper resort day/touring ski.

I realize the fat Ripsticks + Dukes would make for a girthy setup, but the Elans are actually ~150g per ski lighter than the QST’s, plus their squared-off tails would seem to be more skin-friendly.

I should also say: I’m new to touring, and I figure if I get really into it, I’ll undoubtedly do what everybody does and end up springing for a more dedicated setup down the road.

All that to say: before I pull the trigger on two new sets of bindings (Strives & Dukes), would this setup make sense to you guys?

 

[AngryAnalyst]

How much do the Ripsticks weigh?

Any reason you want the Dukes instead of the Shift?

The biggest issue I see with the 116 as a primary touring ski is just stability on days that it makes sense to tour on a 116 underfoot ski, I don't know if that's a big deal where you are or not. The usual reasons people are more willing to use AT bindings on powder skis are less relevant IMHO on Dukes.

 

[James]

If you’re rough on gear, get the Duke over the Shift. If you switch boot styles- alpine vs touring or grip walk, etc get the Duke.

 

[Lebowski]

How much do the Ripsticks weigh?

Any reason you want the Dukes instead of the Shift?

The biggest issue I see with the 116 as a primary touring ski is just stability on days that it makes sense to tour on a 116 underfoot ski, I don't know if that's a big deal where you are or not. The usual reasons people are more willing to use AT bindings on powder skis are less relevant IMHO on Dukes.

Thanks for your feedback!

1) Hard to find a definitive answer but Blister has the 193's @ 2034g each, and my older models may be even a smidge lighter. (By contrast I think the latest QST's are ~2250g)

2) Basically, it seems the Duke's are more reliable? OTOH, anecdotally, heaps of people i talk to with Shift's do seem perfectly happy with them. OTOH, my local shop guy suggests the Dukes are better (he sells both).

3) I'm not sure if I understood - do you mean 116mm might be too unstable in some instances, vs. a narrower ski? FWIW - and I realize I'm really splitting hairs, but apparently the "116's" measure out to 114mm, so they're marginally narrower.

If you’re rough on gear, get the Duke over the Shift. If you switch boot styles- alpine vs touring or grip walk, etc get the Duke.

Thanks for weighing in! Ha, I dunno if I'm rough on gear per se, though maybe a bit careless, but definitely not hardcore with my 8.5 DIN.

Have just one boot to rule them all, Fischer Ranger 130 GW.

 

[James]

Thanks for your feedback!

1) Hard to find a definitive answer but Blister has the 193's @ 2034g each, and my older models may be even a smidge lighter. (By contrast I think the latest QST's are ~2250g)

2) Basically, it seems the Duke's are more reliable? OTOH, anecdotally, heaps of people i talk to with Shift's do seem perfectly happy with them. OTOH, my local shop guy suggests the Dukes are better (he sells both).

3) I'm not sure if I understood - do you mean 116mm might be too unstable in some instances, vs. a narrower ski? FWIW - and I realize I'm really splitting hairs, but apparently the "116's" measure out to 114mm, so they're marginally narrower.



Thanks for weighing in! Ha, I dunno if I'm rough on gear per se, though maybe a bit careless, but definitely not hardcore with my 8.5 DIN.

Have just one boot to rule them all, Fischer Ranger 130 GW.

I think he means stability of the snowpack.

Well if you don’t have to adjust the afd, you’ll be spared on e they get it right.

It’s obvious from looking at both in a store. The Shifts are delicate. That’s why they’re lighter.
I have Shifts. If I did it over, with 98-2 % resort vs tour, I’d go Marker. But standby for the “they’re fine…” posts on the Shift.

It’s astonishing, and depressing, that they have not updated th Shift since it came out.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

1. You could theoretically weigh yours and subtract the bindings, but not a big deal.
2. I am one of the people who doesn't like the Shift because I twist out of the toe in soft snow. It seems, purely anecdotally, that is a more common issue if you weigh over 200 lbs. If that's why you want a Duke, fair enough. However, the Strive and Shift are really pretty similar and I've had that problem with both. Hard for me to understand why you'd choose a Strive over your many alternative alpine options if you're concerned about a Shift from a reliability perspective. The duke does seem beefier but I've never used one.
3. I'm saying that in some climates the conditions where touring on a 116 underfoot ski makes sense (lots of soft snow) tend to be conditions a novice (or even an experienced) backcountry traveler shouldn't necessarily be going out in. I think, but don't know, PNW snow tends to be sort of more stable than drier continental stuff. Any sense for what kind of skis your intended partner(s) use?

Assuming the ~200 gram weight difference between QST 106 and Ripstick 116 is what's pushing you towards the Ripstick, I'd offer that given the weight of the bindings your mounting I don't think it's that big a deal. The Shift vs. Duke is about 200 grams. Food for thought.

 

[Lebowski]

Thanks both for your thoughts - hugely helpful!

I think he means stability of the snowpack.

Well if you don’t have to adjust the afd, you’ll be spared on e they get it right.

It’s obvious from looking at both in a store. The Shifts are delicate. That’s why they’re lighter.
I have Shifts. If I did it over, with 98-2 % resort vs tour, I’d go Marker. But standby for the “they’re fine…” posts on the Shift.

It’s astonishing, and depressing, that they have not updated th Shift since it came out.

Ahh, gotcha re: snowpack stability. For sure, checking out both in the store, the Dukes sure seem less delicate, which is a plus.

Yeah, I agree – you’d think they would have updated the Shifts since their intro. Though I think I read that they did fix some of the chronic issues from the earlier iterations? Not sure what those were, or what the fix was.

1. You could theoretically weigh yours and subtract the bindings, but not a big deal.
2. I am one of the people who doesn't like the Shift because I twist out of the toe in soft snow. It seems, purely anecdotally, that is a more common issue if you weigh over 200 lbs. If that's why you want a Duke, fair enough. However, the Strive and Shift are really pretty similar and I've had that problem with both. Hard for me to understand why you'd choose a Strive over your many alternative alpine options if you're concerned about a Shift from a reliability perspective. The duke does seem beefier but I've never used one.
3. I'm saying that in some climates the conditions where touring on a 116 underfoot ski makes sense (lots of soft snow) tend to be conditions a novice (or even an experienced) backcountry traveler shouldn't necessarily be going out in. I think, but don't know, PNW snow tends to be sort of more stable than drier continental stuff. Any sense for what kind of skis your intended partner(s) use?

Assuming the ~200 gram weight difference between QST 106 and Ripstick 116 is what's pushing you towards the Ripstick, I'd offer that given the weight of the bindings your mounting I don't think it's that big a deal. The Shift vs. Duke is about 200 grams. Food for thought.

1) good call, i will try to do this.

2) I’m a relative lightweight for my height: 6’2, 175lbs, so maybe I’d be immune to those toe issues you described? Who knows.

Re: the Strive – definitely not married to them and know very little about them! I just figured they were Salomon’s newest and got fairly good reviews/scores, and I found a good deal online, why not. Also, I maybe wrongly assumed that since they were Alpine-only, they’d be inherently less complex and prone to breakage than the Shifts. That being said, I’d just has happily throw any other highly-rated alpine binding on them – my Attack 13’s have been perfectly good on the Ripsticks and my old Monster 88’s, and I enjoyed the brief affair I had with Look Pivots (before I sold them and the 2017 BC Corvus they were attached to).


3) I really appreciate this, as I can’t overstate how much of a touring novice I am, haha. I’ve done my Canadian AST Level 1 and that’s it, and plan on doing some very light/easy guided tours this spring and next season, to dip me toes into touring.

Re: the snow pack, I cannot speak knowledgeably to the inherent differences between our Maritime conditions vs. elsewhere, but I do understand this has been a very unstable and dangerous year in the Whistler area backcountry. I take your point that the wider the ski, the more risky the conditions can be!

At this point, my most likely and frequent touring partner will be my wife, who snowboards/splitboards.

You’re correct that the weight difference (and I guess not wanting to render my Ripsticks completely obsolete!) is what’s steering me towards using the Ripsticks as the Touring rig. But your suggestion to instead throw the Duke’s on the QST’s, if I’ve understood correctly, does make a lot of sense. That will definitely make for a heavy setup, but a versatile one, I suppose. I guess the play then would be to just save the 116’s for deep resort days, when a lightweight fat ski helps maximize the laps/vert.

Thanks both again for your advice!

 

[AngryAnalyst]

Re: the snow pack, I cannot speak knowledgeably to the inherent differences between our Maritime conditions vs. elsewhere, but I do understand this has been a very unstable and dangerous year in the Whistler area backcountry. I take your point that the wider the ski, the more risky the conditions can be!

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that a wider ski is riskier. I am saying the conditions where a 116 is a better ski than a 106 are sometimes going to have high avy hazard.

 

[Lebowski]

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that a wider ski is riskier. I am saying the conditions where a 116 is a better ski than a 106 are sometimes going to have high avy hazard.

Right - I did understand this and I should have written "the deeper the snow [not the wider the ski] the riskier the conditions." Thanks!

 

[skt07]

If you’re doing short 1ish hour tours in Whistler/Blackcomb sidecountry, whatever combination you settle on is going to be heavy but fine. None of the combos are ideal for a long touring day anyway so just do whatever feels best to you.

If it were me, I would put Duke PTs/Shifts on the QSTs and likely end up using that 95% of the time. 116 would be a touch wide for my only touring ski. The slightly shorter QSTs will make kick turns a bit easier too. A couple guys I ski with have QST 106s with Shifts and they’re happy enough on short tours.

I also ski at Whistler and have V-Werks Katanas with Tectons for sidecountry tours. Not the lightest touring setup but also holds up to inbounds use. This setup is good for 50/50 inbound/touring, whereas the QST with Dukes might be more like 80/20.

Leave the Ripstick setup as is and save it for the deeper inbound days.

 

[pipestem]

^ Agree... and no reason to throw out the Attack 13, either keep it where it is or move it to the other. Save that moolah for more gear in the future.

 

[Lebowski]

If you’re doing short 1ish hour tours in Whistler/Blackcomb sidecountry, whatever combination you settle on is going to be heavy but fine. None of the combos are ideal for a long touring day anyway so just do whatever feels best to you.

If it were me, I would put Duke PTs/Shifts on the QSTs and likely end up using that 95% of the time. 116 would be a touch wide for my only touring ski. The slightly shorter QSTs will make kick turns a bit easier too. A couple guys I ski with have QST 106s with Shifts and they’re happy enough on short tours.

I also ski at Whistler and have V-Werks Katanas with Tectons for sidecountry tours. Not the lightest touring setup but also holds up to inbounds use. This setup is good for 50/50 inbound/touring, whereas the QST with Dukes might be more like 80/20.

Leave the Ripstick setup as is and save it for the deeper inbound days.

I appreciate this info, thanks!

Yeah, you're no doubt right: as a novice tourer, my heavy-ish setup, while not ideal, may be somewhat inconsequential for my first - and likely shorter – tours. If I’ve understood correctly from everything I’ve read, if I decide I want to get something truly dedicated for touring down the road, it seems I can keep the QST’s + Shift’s/dukes as a perfectly fine, dedicated Alpine setup.

Those Katanas sound sweet! Checking on Blister Reviews, I think my Ripsticks are not far off your Katana’s weight/dimensions, for whatever that's worth. I think the 189cm QST’s and 193 Ripsticks may be just about equal lengthwise, with Blister’s straight pull on the 193’s being 189cm. Also, the Ripsticks are mounted quite a bit more forward, @ 5.35cm from center, vs. the QST’s 9.15cm from center. So I don’t know if that would change your opinion on the better setup between the two?

Here’s a question: if the QST’s weight ~150g/more per ski than the Ripsticks, but the Ripsticks measure 9mm wider than the QST’s, would it still make more sense to tour on the QST’s over the wider, lighter Ripsticks?

Thanks (and sorry) for indulging this analysis paralysis!

^ Agree... and no reason to throw out the Attack 13, either keep it where it is or move it to the other. Save that moolah for more gear in the future.

Thanks! This does make sense - for sure, whatever happens, I'll try to keep the Attack 13's in service.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

Also, I maybe wrongly assumed that since they were Alpine-only, they’d be inherently less complex and prone to breakage than the Shifts.

Just realized I never responded to this on the Strive. There are some durability issues that have been reported by a few people with the Shift, but those durability issues do not seem to be the primary reason people dislike the binding. Pre-release/AFD fiddleliness is my issue and, purely anecdotally, it seems to be the more widely reported problem. I have had a more similar to the Shift than I’m willing to tolerate pre-release experience on the Strive, hence I don’t like it much.

Also, do you have boots with tech inserts?

 

[markojp]

I think he means stability of the snowpack.

Well if you don’t have to adjust the afd, you’ll be spared on e they get it right.
It’s obvious from looking at both in a store. The Shifts are delicate. That’s why they’re lighter.
I have Shifts. If I did it over, with 98-2 % resort vs tour, I’d go Marker. But standby for the “they’re fine…” posts on the Shift.

It’s astonishing, and depressing, that they have not updated th Shift since it came out.

Sorta like all the major updates and tooling changes on all the other bindings? I wish they'd settle down and stop messing with pivots... they just can't get the color figured out I guess.

 

[Lebowski]

Just realized I never responded to this on the Strive. There are some durability issues that have been reported by a few people with the Shift, but those durability issues do not seem to be the primary reason people dislike the binding. Pre-release/AFD fiddleliness is my issue and, purely anecdotally, it seems to be the more widely reported problem. I have had a more similar to the Shift than I’m willing to tolerate pre-release experience on the Strive, hence I don’t like it much.

Also, do you have boots with tech inserts?

Thanks for this explanation!

Yep, my Fischer boots have tech inserts.

So the the plans have changed somewhat - have read a bit more on the Marker Duke PT's and they, too, seem to have their own issues/gremlins, e.g. the fiddly toe piece.

QST arrived yesterday and I think i'm going to buy Shifts for them and be done with it. The price is right and it seems like a good- --perhaps even great!-- enough setup for my resort/sidecountry aspirations. I'll keep an eye on the AFD (inasmuch as one can) and hope for the best.

The funny thing is, after all that - having demoed 6 different skis with a bunch of different bindings - I'm back at the foregone conclusion I had at the beginning, which was 'Don't Overthink Things, Just Get The Damn Shifts+QST's & Go Skiing'

Ahh well, it was still fun demoing!