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FIS and fluoro ban - Devon Kershaw with Zach Caldwell

bbbradley

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Funny how the wax mfrs are claiming the new non fluoro waxes are as fast, if not faster than the old ones.

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jt10000

jt10000

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Caldwell says the best fluoro-free waxes can be as fast as the older HF fluorinated waxes in some conditions BUT not as fast as pure fluoro top coats.

I tend to believe anything he says.
 

bbbradley

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Curious how the results compare on alpine skis vs nordic skis.
 

Muleski

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It's a HUGE advantage and much more "significant" in the Nordic world. Sadly much more of a chance to still be using/cheating with the "old" flouros.

Guys who I know, and trust, like Richie Rokos the retired head of skiing at CU-Boulder describe the advantage in Nordic as "ENORMOUS," when contrasted with alpine racing. Obviously depends on the alpine discipline, but it seems like there are a lot of very fast skis out there, without taking the risk. The new stuff works.

Hard to replicate it on the Nordic skis, evidently.

Alpine, probably likely not worth the chance of being caught. The testing needs to come a long way, BTW.

@Moderators, consider moving to the Race/Competition Forum?

Good post, @jt10000 !
 

crgildart

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Well to be fair, the dirt and "stuff" they're going to be skiing on at The Olympics will be a new experience for everyone. At a venue like that maybe the ban can somewhat be enforced at the border and gates of the Olympic Park. No doubt it will be like going through customs again when they get to the Olympic Village. Again though, the surface for alpine events will be less than "conventional".
 

Primoz

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At the moment there's no ban with FIS on fluoro, so Olympics will do just fine. On the other side, there is fluoro ban on IBU (biathlon) events, so that will be different story.
But as for who says what... yes manufacturer's marketing is claiming all sort of things. Manufacturers servicemen, at least all those I personally know, never claimed new waxes are faster. In fact, every single one has as huge stock as possible of old fluoro waxes to sell to teams. And every single one I know, nordic or alpine, agrees that there's no comparison, so as long as there's no definite ban, everyone will be on HF no questions asked. There is problem, that some of manufacturers will stop produce HF waxes after this season, regardless on ban going into effect or not.
As for difference... with alpine it's small and not really all that relevant, with xc, it's so huge, that doping is joke compared to this. If FIS is planning to police this the way they started, or even worse, the way IBU is policing this, it's going to be huge fiasco. Difference between fluoro and new non-fluoro waxes is so huge, that those using it, and most likely will never get properly caught by current testing methods, will gain more then if they would be fully and utterly doped to the gills, while everyone else would be clean.
 

Primoz

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I doubt, because those nations that normally win everything will be using this... most likely more then anyone else ;)
 

scott43

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@scott43 not gonna happen ;) Wax, especially in xc, is just too important. Even with "one supplier"/same manufacturer you get even today (or still today) different waxes if you are "the right" team, then the rest of others.
I mean, this sounds regulatory not physically impossible. I get what you're saying but there are examples elsewhere. F1 settled on singular fuel and tire suppliers to avoid this type of situation. The waxes can be created and provided to the sporting body for random distribution. If they are tested and found to be changing wax composition, they are simply punished. I get there may be entrenched resistance...it was this way in F1 too. However, that doesn't mean impossible. They could even specify waxing by sporting body techs only to eliminate this variable, especially when it's so important.
 

Primoz

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@scott43 of course it's possible, but there's little catch with this. In whole skiing all together, there's less money then single team spends for catering service in paddock for single race in F1 ;) If there would be enough money, they could easily make proper testing device that could detect banned substances on skis. Technology is there, but problem is, implementing that into device that would fit for use on skiing WC is not that small thing as FIS and IBU thought on beginning. And with money available for that, it will take a little while before technology will be there and in use.
Currently IBU has exactly what you are suggesting... sort of gentleman's agreement that it's not allowed to use fluoro waxes on World cup and IBU cup races. Does it work? Sure... if you believe it. Only way to prove they use fluoro is when someone comes out crying "yes I admit, we use it".... or if someone is stupid enough to keep HF stuff in original box and IBU guys actually check those wax boxes. So realistically... no chances at all, even though just last week they found some nonallowed waxes with Lithuanian and I don't know which other small team.
 

scott43

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Ok so only FIS can wax skis. I feel like this is one of those cases where "it's always been done this way" and people can't get past it..
 

Primoz

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It's an option. Not realistic one but yes that could be one solution. In summer on roller skiing races, it's quite common that organizer provides all roller skis and racer picks pair out of that, so everyone have same roller skis. So yes it could be done also in winter with skis, but that's double minus for FIS. First you get rid of all the money that they get from manufacturers as noone (not wax nor ski manufacturers would be interested to participate in this business anymore) and second, they need to pay whole bunch of money for FIS own service team. Waxing several 100 skis for single race, especially in changing conditions, is not really job for 2 guys. Not to mention that it wouldn't be fair to change wax during XC race for later starters when conditions would be changing, and it wouldn't be fair not to change it either, when condition would change. And as WC races are not the only races where this matters, you would need FIS service team on every EC and lower category race too. So with this solution, FIS would be facing organizing service team with several 100 or even 1000 technicians. I know you have "ski service" on pretty much every xc ski marathon race, and it's done by 2 or 3 people, but seriously, you can't expect world's best skiers compete for Olympic gold medal on skis prepared that way, especially when they are used by now to ski on perfectly prepared skis all their life.
So no realistically that's not solution. Only solution, if they really want to ban fluoro, which is ridiculous in first place, as those few kg of ski waxes they produce in a year, are least of world's pollution problem, is to invest proper amount of money and time to develop properly working testing machine. Not what they did until now, but to take this project way more seriously as they did. And certainly not to solve this issue with some sort of gentleman's agreement, and expect everyone are honest and will stick with it.
 

Tom K.

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Difference between fluoro and new non-fluoro waxes is so huge, that those using it, and most likely will never get properly caught by current testing methods, will gain more then if they would be fully and utterly doped to the gills, while everyone else would be clean.

Wow. I had no idea the difference was that big.

They could just have standard waxes.. one supplier.

Tough change to make, but after a few seasons of "sorting" MotoGP made it work with tires.

I give it two more years before something is developed that truly exceeds the performance of fluoros.

Of course, that will end up being even more expensive!
 

scott43

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I suspected there was some kind of marketing angle to this. You know, our guys are winning on this was so buy it! That's not unreasonable I suppose and yeah, source of income for everyone involved. I suppose it boils down to how hard they want to even the field. To date, F1 has felt that winning teams deserve more opportunity to keep winning. Typically, the worst teams get to draft people first to try to improve. F1 is saying you draft in order of finish..which..is hard for the losing teams really...
 

Primoz

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@Tom K. I think it will take more then just 2 years. I have some inside data from few companies and while marketing people are all over this how new non-fluoro waxes are perfect, their R&D teams and technicians who are on field doing tests are not so supportive to these PR claims ;) This is even more for xc then for alpine, as alpine is relatively easy with quite similar conditions and with very short races (even if at higher speed). With xc you have everything from icy tracks to super dirty wet snow and races up to 50km (if you don't consider marathons), and tracks are prepared differently. While new waxes can be in certain cases just as fast as old fluoro waxes and overlays there's not a single case, that wax, that's as fast or maybe even a bit faster then old one, would remain as fast (or faster) after 4 or 5km. Fluoro is just too good compared ot anything what is currently available (for race service not for normal consumers) when it comes to picking up dirt, or better yet, not picking up dirt from snow.
I'm pretty sure there won't be anything comparable to fluoros in 2 years time, and at same time, I'm also pretty sure, there won't be any usable device for fluoro testing in 2 years time either, as from what I know they didn't move not even milimeter forward from last years fiasco.
PS: From what I know, they actually have perfectly working device, only problem is, this device requires piece of ptex to analyze, and it doesn't work with non-intrusive swab. I'm pretty sure racers, technicians and ski companies are thrilled of idea FIS officials cutting piece of ptex out of their best skis.
 

cantunamunch

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. Only solution, if they really want to ban fluoro, which is ridiculous in first place, as those few kg of ski waxes they produce in a year, are least of world's pollution problem, is to invest proper amount of money and time to develop properly working testing machine. Not what they did until now, but to take this project way more seriously as they did

In case anyone is interested, these machines were what was expected to be used. https://www.bruker.com/en/news-and-events/webinars/2021/handheld-xrf-measurements-of-fluorine.html The part about not reliably measuring anything lighter than magnesium? Still true.

 

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