• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Flexed Extension vs the other thing...

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,256
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
Not if you are going fast enough to load your skis, get rebound to float the transition.

Does require the skier to create centripetal force. But that doesn't need to be hip on snow. Probably more a topic for a Ski School thread.

If your just trying to look like a WC skier or just force use this technique for all conditions I think you will find you will fry your legs, lose control of snow touch causing more drag, skiing slower, not faster.

Well, don't! :cool:

The ski rules makes current GS techniques and tactics goofy exhibits of technique + too much pure athletism. Allow for more tighter radius, a return to more beautiful technical racing.

:thumb:

MHO the women's WC GS is generally a lot better viewing - more carving.
 

Zirbl

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 22, 2021
Posts
1,010
Location
Austria, Italy
MHO the women's WC GS is generally a lot better viewing - more carving.
Agree, but are the men going in so direct because the skis force them too, or because they can? It was also the 35m skis that Ligety was so dominant on with a clean loopy line, and there was plenty of dirty skiing in the men's before the rule change, so are the skis to blame? Or @RoninSkier are you talking about GS ever since the pre-27-metre rule rather than the 35 and 30m days?

Do you prefer to watch Brignone on the old skis or the new ones? 23m for the women back then wasn't it?
 
Last edited:

Zirbl

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 22, 2021
Posts
1,010
Location
Austria, Italy
In a high load, high angle turn, we literally can not control what % of weight is on which ski at the high load part of the turn. You worry about edge angles being the same - maintaining edge similarity so that whatever load IS on the inside ski is doing good work. The relative weight distribution is dictated by the kinematics of our legs - what angles our joints are at, and how this translates to each leg's ability to carry load. The outside leg is barely bent, so it is very strong. The inside leg of elite skiers is often bent more than 90 degrees in a highly loaded turn with good vertical separation. This inside leg is so weak in that position that it is virtually incapable of carrying significant load compared to the outer leg which is in that super strong position. You can try all you want, but once you get to very high edge angles with vertical separation (your inside knee almost in your ribs!), 90%+ of your the load will be on the outside leg, simply because the inside leg in that position can not carry much load compared to the outside leg. If you can carry a lot of load on your inside ski, you are not achieving high edge angles. You are not going fast.

How about when racers lose their outside ski and ski the larger part of a high angle turn soley on the inside ski?
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,605
Location
PNW aka SEA
How about when racers lose their outside ski and ski the larger part of a high angle turn soley on the inside ski?

Like Kilde's 90kph white pass turn during the last SG race last season. I love absolutes in skiing... they go to pot so quickly.
 

Mike B

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Posts
117
Location
Aspen, Co
How about when racers lose their outside ski and ski the larger part of a high angle turn soley on the inside ski?
Absolutes kill.

This is like the good old days on straight skis. After all, the Maher bros coined the phrase "white pass turn". There Is no old school vs. new school unless you're in the absolute category. Makes me laugh and cry at the same time.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,605
Location
PNW aka SEA
Absolutes kill.

This is like the good old days on straight skis. After all, the Maher bros coined the phrase "white pass turn". There Is no old school vs. new school unless you're in the absolute category. Makes me laugh and cry at the same time.

Absolutes just give me gas.
 

Jamt

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
334
Location
Jämtland, Sweden
Agree, but are the men going in so direct because the skis force them too, or because they can? It was also the 35m skis that Ligety was so dominant on with a clean loopy line, and there was plenty of dirty skiing in the men's before the rule change, so are the skis to blame? Or @RoninSkier are you talking about GS ever since the pre-27-metre rule rather than the 35 and 30m days?

Do you prefer to watch Brignone on the old skis or the new ones? 23m for the women back then wasn't it?
Generally the mens courses and sets are more difficult. Also, in the >23m era most skiers were using longer radius. Even in >27m era many racers used longer radius. Ski construction technology has improved a lot. Probably a bigger factor than radius.
Edit, actually this ties in with what @BTWilliams said about longer turn radius, but you choose the turn radius by selecting the ski. You can also see it as choosing a ski that allows higher speed before you reach maximum edge angle.
 
Last edited:

Smear

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Posts
238
Reminded me of a test we did the other day. On a GS course with a strong head wind, the higher transition with dynamic strong turn phase (more direct line) was 2 seconds faster than lower transitions with deeper tucks. Quite interesting since I thought before that the head wind would make it the other way around.

Since you probably understand norwegian :) If interested in the effect of aerodynamics and how coaching it effects other things, perhaps you will like this recorded webinar from february:

https://www.skiforbundet.no/alpint/nyhetsarkiv/2023/2/webinar-aerodynamikk---sondag-6.-februar/

Lots of similar webinars on the same place. Just sad that the imbedded videos often are very choppy.

I was gate juge at a kids race earlier this year. Two times 80 min with 10 min break in between, wind at times blowing so hard that it would threaten to steal the start list or worse the gate jugde card every time I had to take it out to make notes. A joy ;-)

Watching just 4 gates for almost 3 hours on a very flat and easy hill. Was starting to wonder what's the point, if it's a contest in having parents good at waxing, beeing lucky with the wind or beeing shaped mostly like a plug. But watching the fastest few, it was really apparent that they solved it differently ski technique wise.

Even at this easy section the best where able to ski ski really dynamically. Not supporting their weigth in-between turns but letting it flow undisrupted from turn to turn.

The trajectory of their COM in both in terms of up/down and direction decided in how they ended the last turn, and not having to interfere or support it before close to the apex of the next turn. Perfectly mathing the dynamics of their ski turn with the demands of the course without any "dead spots".

Hope I get as good as the those best U12's before I stagnate out of age related reasons ;-)
 
Last edited:

Jamt

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
334
Location
Jämtland, Sweden
Since you probably understand norwegian :) If interested in the effect of aerodynamics and how coaching it effects other things, perhaps you will like this recorded webinar from february:

https://www.skiforbundet.no/alpint/nyhetsarkiv/2023/2/webinar-aerodynamikk---sondag-6.-februar/

Lots of similar webinars on the same place. Just sad that the imbedded videos often are very choppy.

I was gate juge at a kids race earlier this year. Two times 80 min with 10 min break in between, wind at times blowing so hard that it would threaten to steal the start list or worse the gate jugde card every time I had to take it out to make notes. A joy ;-)

Watching just 4 gates for almost 3 hours on a very flat and easy hill. Was starting to wonder what's the point, if it's a contest in having parents good at waxing, beeing lucky with the wind or beeing shaped mostly like a plug. But watching the fastest few, it was really apparent that they solved it differently ski technique wise.

Even at this easy section the best where able to ski ski really dynamically. Not supporting their weigth in-between turns but letting it flow undisrupted from turn to turn.

The trajectory of their COM in both in terms of up/down and direction decided in how they ended the last turn, and not having to interfere or support it before close to the apex of the next turn. Perfectly mathing the dynamics of their ski turn with the demands of the course without any "dead spots".

Hope I get as good as the those best U12's before I stagnate out of age related reasons ;-)
Thanks, Robert Reid is really a treasure trove of information. His PhD thesis from 2010 is a really good reference for how the best skiers ski. A coach I know worked with the Norwegian team and he was really impressed by the support they got from Robert. In coaching circles there is a lot of heresay on what makes fast skiing, but Robert could really back his claims.
 

Ivan

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Posts
479
Location
Binghamton, NY
Does this count as a flexed transition or an extended one? :)
Screenshot 2023-03-04 at 9.28.17 AM.png
(from this video)
 

RoninSkier

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Posts
259
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Does this count as a flexed transition or an extended one? :)
View attachment 194756
(from this video)
Slightly flexed, high transition.
HK and most racers look like their ankles are more flexed than us rec skiers because they have much more forward lean and in most cases more ramp angle in their boots. Compared to us they all look like crouching tigers.

We all need some flexion (varying dynamic ankle, knee & hip angles) to
1) Drive the knee, angulate to balance etc to maximize edge angle. Or else the only option is to only bank/inclinate with stiff straight legs and limit edge angles in a unstable position... and
2) For terrain adaption, absorption, ski pressure/rebound....and
3) For fore/aft edge pressure control to shape our turns, respond to snow contact variations
 

RoninSkier

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Posts
259
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Like Kilde's 90kph white pass turn during the last SG race last season. I love absolutes in skiing... they go to pot so quickly.
Absolutely about absolutes.

Why balance in skiing is dyanmic not static.

Why we must develop and master a tool box of skills to use appropriately for varying terrain/course and snow conditions.

There absolute fundamentals - how and in what way gravity, centripetal force, momentum vs steering angle etc etc works and how we must learn to use them.

But absolutes in technique/tactics, posing ..... in most cases absolutely useless.

IMHO
 

Zirbl

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 22, 2021
Posts
1,010
Location
Austria, Italy
and in most cases more ramp angle in their boots
Really? Head's FIS boot manual states that the bootboard is 4 degrees and that most of their contracted racers LOWER the heel by a few millimetres. Not disagreeing that some will be raising the heel, @onenerdykid has stated as much re. Atomic's racers in very stiff boots with lots of forward lean, but MOST?
 
Last edited:

Ivan

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Posts
479
Location
Binghamton, NY
Really? Head's FIS boot manual states that the bootboard is 4 degrees and that most of their contracted racers LOWER the heel by a few millimetres. Not disagreeing that some will be raising the heel, @onenerdykid has stated as much re. Atomic's racers in very stiff boots with lots of forward lean, but MOST?
While this is obviously athlete-specific, I believe (partly based on conversations with very good coaches) that World Cup athletes usually have more forward mean and lower (not higher) ramp angles. Their ankles are often very flexible, so they can handle a lot of “net” forward lean.
 

Zirbl

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 22, 2021
Posts
1,010
Location
Austria, Italy
While this is obviously athlete-specific, I believe (partly based on conversations with very good coaches) that World Cup athletes usually have more forward mean and lower (not higher) ramp angles. Their ankles are often very flexible, so they can handle a lot of “net” forward lean.
Thanks, that was my understanding of the current trend, but of course these things can change quickly.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,256
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
Agree, but are the men going in so direct because the skis force them too, or because they can? It was also the 35m skis that Ligety was so dominant on with a clean loopy line, and there was plenty of dirty skiing in the men's before the rule change, so are the skis to blame? Or @RoninSkier are you talking about GS ever since the pre-27-metre rule rather than the 35 and 30m days?

Do you prefer to watch Brignone on the old skis or the new ones? 23m for the women back then wasn't it?

First off a question for alpine ski racing historians - only began watching it 3-4 years ago....

This thing about Ligety being dominate with the 35m ski. Is that right? The records for the GS globe show:

27m:
2008 Ligety
2009 Cuche
2010 Ligety
2011 Ligety
2012 Hirscher
35m (intro-ed for the 2012/13 season):
2013 Ligety
2014 Ligety
2015 Hirscher
2016 Hirscher
2017 Hirscher
30m (intro-ed for the 2017/18 season):
2018 Hirscher

Seems Ligety was doing just fine in GS with 27m skis, and continued to do just fine for the 1st 2 seasons on 35m, but then Hirscher fought back. 3 out of the 5 GS globes in the 30m zone.


Don't know if it's ski radius or course set - Ligety reckons the courses are straighter with more distance between gates (from 24m to 28m and much less curvy) - or folks just figured that the quickest way down is air stivot to remove the top of the turn then point n shoot to the next stivot. Youtuber Ski Dad, who keeps stats on these things, reckons less than 10% of GS turns are pure carved nowadays. So maybe the only interest is is classifying all the different ways to stivot - (Ski Dad has a lot of different types. :ogcool:) Kind of be nice to see more of a mix - which in MHO the women's events provide atm.

Does this count as a flexed transition or an extended one? :)
View attachment 194756
(from this video)


There's an attempt at a definition of a compact transition as one in which the hips are behind the heels and extension is when hips are over or in front of heels. From that definition HK tx's probably be compact but the camera angle is not great for assessing the relative hip/heel position.

Here's the vid:
 

Zirbl

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 22, 2021
Posts
1,010
Location
Austria, Italy
This thing about Ligety being dominate with the 35m ski. Is that right?
Dominant in the sense of his margins in the first season.

There were loads of unclean entries of the kind listed on the Skidad videos before the 35m skis too, though if I'm not mistaken, the long stivot became much more common with the 35m skis. If you like to watch the cleaner carving in the women's GS, compare Denise Karbon in 2007 to Sölden in recent years:
Or Nicole Hosp here:
I'd say Kristoffersen skis with a pretty high basic stance, or is doing so of late, as opposed to using an up move, but I'm saying that to test what I think I'm seeing against what the coaches in this thread are seeing. I THINK I'm seeing a current trend in racing for a slightly higher stance, especially in SL this season, so again, coaches please correct me if I'm wrong. Going off race footage, not that freeskiing video.
 
Last edited:

dj61

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Posts
223
Youtuber Ski Dad, who keeps stats on these things, reckons less than 10% of GS turns are pure carved nowadays.
I watch all WC skiing. I am not counting carved turns but less than 10% pure carved turns is a questionable percentage. Or the catch should be in the “pure” part and Ski Dad has a golden standard for determining that.
 
Last edited:

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,617
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
I watch all WC skiing. I am not counting carved turns but less than 10% pure carved turns is a questionable percentage. Or the catch should be in the “pure” part and Ski Dad has a golden standard for determining that.
Not really that surprising; the turns are designed to be difficult to cleanly carve all the way. That way the racers have to have more skills, plus be way better at carving to get a good time. If someone were to manage to find a ski that they could cleanly carve every turn on and start winning by 2 seconds all the time, you bet your adz, they would shorten the turn, put them on the other side of a roller, make the minimum turn radius 45 for GS or find another way to separate the field and keep the competition close enough to not be a foregone conclusion..
 
Last edited:

RoninSkier

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Posts
259
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Really? Head's FIS boot manual states that the bootboard is 4 degrees and that most of their contracted racers LOWER the heel by a few millimetres. Not disagreeing that some will be raising the heel, @onenerdykid has stated as much re. Atomic's racers in very stiff boots with lots of forward lean, but MOST?
OK I stand corrected for WC racers.

But is even a 'real' race boot from the factory not a starting point, a blank to mold to the skier? Every skier has some differences in anatomy.

What do you do with a skier, even an expert or good club racer, who has limited range of ankle flexion? Or some one with a long femur? So that when they flex/extend in a std boot their COM shifts to the back seat

What do compentent coaches & intructors do?
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top