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Fore/aft alignment when boot shopping

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on some new boots. Really hate the process. My hope is to be able to move my ZipFit liner over to a new shell.

Comfort, hotspots, etc. I have no problem with. But, how does a bootfitter deal with fore/aft alignment? Not sure what they look for or even if they consider it when recommending a boot.

Might as well ask this too. Do you recommend skiing a boot before having it canted? My current boots were fitted and canted by Billy Kaplan. He had a shop full of homemade machines to test and adjust cant. Not sure how it's handled at the local ski shop.
 

GB_Ski

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I used Greg Heinos at Ski Barne. He adjusted canting at the end of the process. It seemed pretty easy to me.
 

Philpug

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I'm finally ready to pull the trigger on some new boots. Really hate the process. My hope is to be able to move my ZipFit liner over to a new shell.

Comfort, hotspots, etc. I have no problem with. But, how does a bootfitter deal with fore/aft alignment? Not sure what they look for or even if they consider it when recommending a boot.

Might as well ask this too. Do you recommend skiing a boot before having it canted? My current boots were fitted and canted by Billy Kaplan. He had a shop full of homemade machines to test and adjust cant. Not sure how it's handled at the local ski shop.
Obviously you are looking for new boots for a reason. If they aren't working, that is one thing but if they are just they are just worn out, I would suggest starting with a newer version of that boot or at least something similar in design, why fix what isn't broken? If you want to use your Zipfits, bring them along. If you know you have needed canting before, let the fitter know (not all boots are cantable).
 
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TS
Jersey Skier

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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I used Greg Heinos at Ski Barne. He adjusted canting at the end of the process. It seemed pretty easy to me.
I think you are talking about aligning the cuff. I am talking about adjusting angles of soles and lugs.
I was going to see Greg as I've used him before with good results.
 

otto

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There are aspects of boot set up that can be very accurately adjusted by fitters like Billy Kaplan or Greg. Two of those adjustments are adjusting the cuff to match the lateral alignment of the lower leg, relative to the foot being neutrally supported. The second adjustment is aligning the knee and hips over the feet by adding cant shims between the boot lower and the walking sole or planing of the boot sole if it is a solid polyurethane shell.

Those adjustments are precise and repeatable in any ski shop by any fitter with the skills, knowledge base, and tools.

What is more of a trip down the peverbial rabbit hole is forward lean and or binding delta. There is not a device that is manufactured or a universally agreed upon number or position in the boot to lead to a bullseye position while inside on the floor or bench of a ski shop. Using a definitive statement like there is not a "formula" for delta or forward lean is not accurate, however if we adjust our thinking about how forward lean or binding delta is arrived at, it should allow any skier to determine the best on hill positioning of forward lean and or binding delta. The trouble with this concept is that there are boot fitters out there that will tell you what your set-up for FL and Delta must be based on either their own story and or someone else's story that they have read about or seen. As an example in Tahoe a number of fitters I know will "guess" that every skier that comes through the door needs a gas pedal and or some wacky delta changes with no factual basis. These false positives through guesswork or personal experience adjustments have no place on other skiers unless they are absolute twins to the fitter. In a perfect world every skier that was concerned with their fore-aft position would be able to get a guided tour of fore-aft balance on the mountain with a trained professional that had all of the test tricks in their pocket and could do "on/off" style of testing to confirm that the adjustments are correct for your skiing. Good luck with that... For two reasons there are very few individuals in the world that can blend boot fitting expertise, with alignment expertise, with teaching and coaching skills to dial in the whole package. It is the unicorn that all skiers would benefit from if they could just find that master.
 

LiquidFeet

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....
What is more of a trip down the peverbial rabbit hole is forward lean and or binding delta. There is not a device that is manufactured or a universally agreed upon number or position in the boot to lead to a bullseye position while inside on the floor or bench of a ski shop. ....
Worth repeating.
 

Noodler

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There are aspects of boot set up that can be very accurately adjusted by fitters like Billy Kaplan or Greg. Two of those adjustments are adjusting the cuff to match the lateral alignment of the lower leg, relative to the foot being neutrally supported. The second adjustment is aligning the knee and hips over the feet by adding cant shims between the boot lower and the walking sole or planing of the boot sole if it is a solid polyurethane shell.

Those adjustments are precise and repeatable in any ski shop by any fitter with the skills, knowledge base, and tools.

What is more of a trip down the peverbial rabbit hole is forward lean and or binding delta. There is not a device that is manufactured or a universally agreed upon number or position in the boot to lead to a bullseye position while inside on the floor or bench of a ski shop. Using a definitive statement like there is not a "formula" for delta or forward lean is not accurate, however if we adjust our thinking about how forward lean or binding delta is arrived at, it should allow any skier to determine the best on hill positioning of forward lean and or binding delta. The trouble with this concept is that there are boot fitters out there that will tell you what your set-up for FL and Delta must be based on either their own story and or someone else's story that they have read about or seen. As an example in Tahoe a number of fitters I know will "guess" that every skier that comes through the door needs a gas pedal and or some wacky delta changes with no factual basis. These false positives through guesswork or personal experience adjustments have no place on other skiers unless they are absolute twins to the fitter. In a perfect world every skier that was concerned with their fore-aft position would be able to get a guided tour of fore-aft balance on the mountain with a trained professional that had all of the test tricks in their pocket and could do "on/off" style of testing to confirm that the adjustments are correct for your skiing. Good luck with that... For two reasons there are very few individuals in the world that can blend boot fitting expertise, with alignment expertise, with teaching and coaching skills to dial in the whole package. It is the unicorn that all skiers would benefit from if they could just find that master.

I completely agree with your assessment of the current state, However, just because that's where things are today, does not mean it must stay that way. People once believed the Earth was flat... science to the rescue,,,
 

ted

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It’s really quite simple-

Boot internal ramp angle and forward lean need to match ankle dorsiflexion, this comes first.
Binding delta needs to not over or under flex your morphology above the ankle.

Getting there-NOT SIMPLE

Finding someone who knows - NOT SIMPLE
 

Jerez

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This is very interesting to me. I too am having to get new boots. (Hard to fit low volume feet long toes) and the old ones (Scsrpa Freedom SL with zipfits) are no longer made. Best fitting boot out of the box was an Atomic Redster STi.

They appear to have much more forward lean than my old boots. Is this likely to be a problem? I have good range of motion in my ankle/dorsiflextion. My bindings on all skis are flat.

I would have to return the boots before I can get to my boot fitter next month.

I tried Nordica Promachine (swam in them) and Lange ZJ+ (could not get high instep into the boot) don't really see another option for me.
 

Triplet

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This is very interesting to me. I too am having to get new boots. (Hard to fit low volume feet long toes) and the old ones (Scsrpa Freedom SL with zipfits) are no longer made. Best fitting boot out of the box was an Atomic Redster STi.

They appear to have much more forward lean than my old boots. Is this likely to be a problem? I have good range of motion in my ankle/dorsiflextion. My bindings on all skis are flat.

I would have to return the boots before I can get to my boot fitter next month.

I tried Nordica Promachine (swam in them) and Lange ZJ+ (could not get high instep into the boot) don't really see another option for me.
@Jerez , so u fit fine in the STi but u didn't in the ZJ+?
Are u talking about the current STI model and what was the reason for the ZJ+ issue?
I just don't get it, is the ZJ with too high of an instep(as the ZJ is definitely a higher instep boot than the STI) or your instep is high?
 

Jerez

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My instep is high. And I had been told the ZJ+ had a higher instep than the Atomic so I wanted to try it. The Atomic does have a bit of a pressure point there. But while I could get into the Atomic, I couldn't get my foot into the ZJ+ to be able to tell. I don't know why. The overlap on the top of the foot is a little different. I could not discern an appreciable difference in the plastic softness. Even with my husband wrenching the plastic apart as much as he could it would not create enough room for my instep to clear the cuff to foot area and get into the boot. Short of breaking my foot and a crowbar... :geek:
 

Noodler

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My instep is high. And I had been told the ZJ+ had a higher instep than the Atomic so I wanted to try it. The Atomic does have a bit of a pressure point there. But while I could get into the Atomic, I couldn't get my foot into the ZJ+ to be able to tell. I don't know why. The overlap on the top of the foot is a little different. I could not discern an appreciable difference in the plastic softness. Even with my husband wrenching the plastic apart as much as he could it would not create enough room for my instep to clear the cuff to foot area and get into the boot. Short of breaking my foot and a crowbar... :geek:

Grind/shave down the bootboard...

If you want to "prove" how this change works, simply remove the bootboard and see what it's like to get the boot on. Obviously you can't ski it that way, but you'll understand the impact.
 

ted

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Atomic Hawx Ultra is way lower volume than Promachine and has higher instep, worth a try.
If you have fore aft issues stay away fro older than 2022 model.
 

Jerez

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My bootfitter said if the Redster fit to go with that. Easier to make room than to take room. If really does fit well and I think be a great fir with a few tweaks.

What I really want to know is if the forward lean is going to be a big problem.
 

princo

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A number of fitters I know will "guess" that every skier that comes through the door needs a gas pedal and or some wacky delta changes with no factual basis. These false positives through guesswork or personal experience adjustments have no place on other skiers unless they are absolute twins to the fitter. In a perfect world every skier that was concerned with their fore-aft position would be able to get a guided tour of fore-aft balance on the mountain with a trained professional that had all of the test tricks in their pocket and could do "on/off" style of testing to confirm that the adjustments are correct for your skiing.

A few years ago I went to get custom footbeds at very well known local boot fitter. He fitted me with the footbed and while at it removed the spoiler of my boot. A few weeks later I went to a moguls clinic and the instructor after watching my stance/balance while skiing, put a bunch of trail maps as temporary spoilers and that cured a lot of backseating issues I had with that boot after the spoiler had been removed. I got the spoiler back and happy since then. Seems to me that forward lean is one of those things that need to be assessed and fined tuned on the mountain rather than on the shop.
 

Triplet

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My bootfitter said if the Redster fit to go with that. Easier to make room than to take room. If really does fit well and I think be a great fir with a few tweaks.

What I really want to know is if the forward lean is going to be a big problem.
You said you have good dorsiflexion so it shouldn't be. What will be different and maybe not very pleasant is standing in lines, more tiring for the legs :D The STI is a great boot for the skiing part.

edit: it's not only the Dorsiflexion. What is your ratio of femur to tibia? And do you have a long torso/long legs or your body is proportional? This also affects how you would feel with more FL.
 
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Triplet

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@Jerez look again at my comment if u have missed the edit.
 
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Jerez

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You said you have good dorsiflexion so it shouldn't be. What will be different and maybe not very pleasant is standing in lines, more tiring for the legs :D The STI is a great boot for the skiing part.

edit: it's not only the Dorsiflexion. What is your ratio of femur to tibia? And do you have a long torso/long legs or your body is proportional? This also affects how you would feel with more FL.
Thank you. I did miss it.. Body is propotional. Ankle to knee and knee to hip are equal mas o menos.
 

otto

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As more "experts" chime in about the factors that effect forward lean, it becomes clear as mud that FL is almost impossible to nail while trying on boots in a ski shop.

I attempted to explain in my first post that there are definitive measurements and assessments that all boot fitters can learn to do and learn what factual adapting changes you can make to a ski boot with predictable and provable results. Then there is fore/aft balance which is the honey hole of unpredictability based on so many malleable and free flowing possibilities and combinations of complex movements and compensations that prove again and again the premise why even God cannot hit a one iron.

Lets throw out some of the parameters that cannot be assessed relative to Fore/Aft balance.

Strength
Flexibility
Coordination
Proportions of your frame, as in combinations of length of torso versus length of lower body, versus length of lower leg to proportions of the femur, hip socket width, angle of the femur into the hip socket, etc, etc, etc, and etc...
Size and shape of the calf and lower leg
Inherent performance of your bodies gyroscope that controls balance
Hand eye coordination
Foot size relative to frame size
Innate propreiception of moving your body through space at varying degrees of speed and gravitational pull.

Why these above factors are so different than the internal fit, ankle range of motion, arch flexibility, and forefoot mechanics, is that those inside the boot factors are mostly "if / than" problem solving. Meaning that when you know what the ankle ROM is you can make a definitive change in the boots net forward lean that is based on physical commonalities that can be discovered and repeated with every skier. With Forward Lean or binding Delta, there are too many variables as stated above, without definitive repeatable "fixes" to make hard and fast "rules" to be used. Stripped down it means that to find home base, if it is not inherently correct out of the box, is a game of testing the parameters on snow with a few shims and parts to be able to test in an "on / off" method like increasing binding delta, taking a run, then decreasing binding delta and taking a run. In most instances this form of testing shows the trend of the direction that will work best for your skiing. The same could be done with a forward lean wedge, by testing it in the back behind the calf, or reversing the placement at the top of the tongue, or removing it all together.

A good boot fitter can do all the basic work necessary to get you out on the mountain to begin the process of discovery of the best fore/aft balance while skiing. The last 10% of the process can be discovered on the mountain by increasing or decreasing the FL formula, and or increasing and decreasing the binding delta. The numbers are millimeters not inches.

It is also worth mentioning that the process should exist to find the sweet spot to begin and end your positioning in every turn. One of the reasons that the concept of FL balance is so misunderstood is that a vast majority of skiers believe that the boot should be like a cast that should be set-up so that you are being controlled by the angles of the boot. This is a false perception as the boot angles need to allow the skier to adapt to all speeds, all gravitational pulls, all snow conditions, on all skis. To this point you can chase this mechanical concept that the boot does all the work not the skier. The solution in some instances is some coaching or a lesson to help the skier learn that this magical balance position is a fluid and moving target that needs to be supported by the boot, but not mandated by the boot. Your propreiceptive ability to re-center your hips and feet over the middle of the ski between turns is a skill that can be taught and trained into any skiers technique.
 

Prosper

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A few years ago I went to get custom footbeds at very well known local boot fitter. He fitted me with the footbed and while at it removed the spoiler of my boot. A few weeks later I went to a moguls clinic and the instructor after watching my stance/balance while skiing, put a bunch of trail maps as temporary spoilers and that cured a lot of backseating issues I had with that boot after the spoiler had been removed. I got the spoiler back and happy since then. Seems to me that forward lean is one of those things that need to be assessed and fined tuned on the mountain rather than on the shop.
I thought spoilers were more to take up a little room for those with thinner calfs. Have others noticed a significant difference in helping with back seat driving with spoilers?
 

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